Answer these wrong questions about ASOUE chronology

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I ask you to read all the questions first, and then come back answering each one, if possible, even in your mind.

Do you think the letters to the editor indicate that ASOUE's books were published in less than a week?
 
Do you believe that when Lemony wrote to Dairy about his research on the movie Zombies in the Snow, he had already tried to publish his books through other publishers and received denials?


Do you believe that when Lemony read about his own death in DP, he was near the Kafka cafe?

Do you believe he was there at the time of the TEE events, or sometime later when he was researching more details about what happened to the Baudelaires while they were there?

Do you believe that when Lemony fled the ship after the story published in the DP in Chapter 1, Lemony had published at least TBB? Do you believe that the burial of the coffin where Lemony would be was held near the end of the year? In this case, do you believe that Lemony's coffin burial took place at the time of the events narrated in TSS? Or do you think Lemony's burial of the coffin took place years later, at a time when Lemony was further investigating the events involving the Baudelaire sibligns?

Do you think the years in which Lemony was presumably dead to which "R" refers came before or after the publication of some of ASOUE's books?

Do you believe Lemony traveled to London to research about Uncle Monty's lost reptiles during the major events of ASOUE, or did this happen during his research on the major events of ASOUE some time later?

Do you believe that Lemony's remark about Prufrock Prep has been closed for many years is an indication that Daniel Handler had in mind that Lemony was writing about ASOUE from a point of view where Lemony was writing about the past many years before moment of writing? Do you think this is evidence that, at least until book 5, Daniel Handler planned that Lemony was writing about the past many years earlier?


Do you believe that Lemony could have started writing (not publishing) TBB before the events narrated in THH, but writing only his personal observations rather than a written account including Baudelaire siblings' private dialogues and thought descriptions as it eventually became his books?

Do you believe that the descriptions of Baudelaire siblings' private dialogues as well as the description of their thoughts and feelings are unreliable inventions or deductions from Lemony which character? In this case, were the transliterations of Sunny's language inventions of Lemony? In this case, was the moment Sunny speaking a more comprehensible language just Lemony's invention?

In the English version of TBB's original book, on the page where Lemony introduces the characters, is there an indication that Lemony has spent years researching the Baudelaires to publish the books? (I ask this because in the Portuguese version there is this).

 Do you believe Lemony was lying (or making an unnecessary joke) by claiming to have spent months searching for bones in the TSS mountain region? Do you believe Lemony was lying (or making an unnecessary joke) when he stated what the fate of the two women with the white-painted face in TSS might have been, implying that at the time of writing TSS it had been some time since they left Olaf's troupe until the writing of the book? Or do you think Lemony was lying (or telling an unnecessary joke) when he wrote that he couldn't find the refrigerator that was at the base of VFD at the time he was writing TSS? Or do you think he was lying (or telling an unnecessary joke) when he said he spent months looking for the caravan? Do you think Lemony was exaggerating when he said he devoted most of his life to investigating Baudelaire-related events (TSS)?
How do you answer all these questions by using as a prerogative that the secret letter in TSS was written at the time of ASOUE's narrated events?

Do you believe all these questions can be answered simply by stating that the author has made chronological errors in his narrative? In this case, don't you think we'd better look for alternatives in reading interpretation than simply proposing that Daniel Handler made grotesque chronological errors within the same book (TSS) so that we don't close the door to a pretty story told between the lines of the main text of ASOUE?

[Foxy]

Sept 25, 2019 9:03:35 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

Do you think the letters to the editor indicate that ASOUE's books were published in less than a week?

No way...

Do you believe that when Lemony wrote to Dairy about his research on the movie Zombies in the Snow, he had already tried to publish his books through other publishers and received denials?

I guess that's possible.

Do you believe that when Lemony read about his own death in DP, he was near the Kafka cafe?

Well, he was in a cafe, right? My TUA memory is not so great.

Do you believe he was there at the time of the TEE events, or sometime later when he was researching more details about what happened to the Baudelaires while they were there?

I guess he could have been there, as one of the people at the in auction, but I thought he was a wanted criminal already at this time.

Do you believe that when Lemony fled the ship after the story published in the DP in Chapter 1, Lemony had published at least TBB? Do you believe that the burial of the coffin where Lemony would be was held near the end of the year? In this case, do you believe that Lemony's coffin burial took place at the time of the events narrated in TSS? Or do you think Lemony's burial of the coffin took place years later, at a time when Lemony was further investigating the events involving the Baudelaire sibligns?

Hmm... I never really thought about when the burial took place. Also, who did they bury? I feel like the police should be all over this.

Do you think the years in which Lemony was presumably dead to which "R" refers came before or after the publication of some of ASOUE's books?

I think before.

Do you believe Lemony traveled to London to research about Uncle Monty's lost reptiles during the major events of ASOUE, or did this happen during his research on the major events of ASOUE some time later?

I think he reasearched everything chronologically and reported it as so in his books.

Do you believe that Lemony's remark about Prufrock Prep has been closed for many years is an indication that Daniel Handler had in mind that Lemony was writing about ASOUE from a point of view where Lemony was writing about the past many years before moment of writing? Do you think this is evidence that, at least until book 5, Daniel Handler planned that Lemony was writing about the past many years earlier?

I think that line of thinking kind of fits in with different thoughts from the first four books.

Do you believe that Lemony could have started writing (not publishing) TBB before the events narrated in THH, but writing only his personal observations rather than a written account including Baudelaire siblings' private dialogues and thought descriptions as it eventually became his books?

I think he could have started writing it, but it would have been the complete story we have now.

Do you believe that the descriptions of Baudelaire siblings' private dialogues as well as the description of their thoughts and feelings are unreliable inventions or deductions from Lemony which character? In this case, were the transliterations of Sunny's language inventions of Lemony? In this case, was the moment Sunny speaking a more comprehensible language just Lemony's invention?

I think it's a work of fiction, so anything is possible. I think Sunny's speech is mostly meant to be funny, and I also came up with my own translations in TSBD.

In the English version of TBB's original book, on the page where Lemony introduces the characters, is there an indication that Lemony has spent years researching the Baudelaires to publish the books? (I ask this because in the Portuguese version there is this).

Can you explain what your book says?

Do you believe Lemony was lying (or making an unnecessary joke) by claiming to have spent months searching for bones in the TSS mountain region? Do you believe Lemony was lying (or making an unnecessary joke) when he stated what the fate of the two women with the white-painted face in TSS might have been, implying that at the time of writing TSS it had been some time since they left Olaf's troupe until the writing of the book? Or do you think Lemony was lying (or telling an unnecessary joke) when he wrote that he couldn't find the refrigerator that was at the base of VFD at the time he was writing TSS? Or do you think he was lying (or telling an unnecessary joke) when he said he spent months looking for the caravan? Do you think Lemony was exaggerating when he said he devoted most of his life to investigating Baudelaire-related events (TSS)?
How do you answer all these questions by using as a prerogative that the secret letter in TSS was written at the time of ASOUE's narrated events?

I think that's just Lemony being Lemony. I think he thinks that might be what happened. Maybe someone stole the refrigerator. I mean, the thing survived a huge fire. It must be a fantastic appliance. I think he really did search for the caravan for that long. I think exaggerating he might have been... how many years did he spend studying them? Plus, they were born way after him, so how much of his life could he really have devoted to it, unless he is super old. I can't explain the letter.

Do you believe all these questions can be answered simply by stating that the author has made chronological errors in his narrative? In this case, don't you think we'd better look for alternatives in reading interpretation than simply proposing that Daniel Handler made grotesque chronological errors within the same book (TSS) so that we don't close the door to a pretty story told between the lines of the main text of ASOUE?

YES!!! And no, it's just too much work. It's meant to just be something you read for enjoyment... and I'm starting not to enjoy it so much anymore.

[Hermes]

Jean Lucio:

You sound as if you are cross-examining someone. This is not nice. I do not intend to submit to cross-examination. I will just give my own view on the issues you raise.

There are clear indications, in both the early and the later books, that Lemony is writing long after the events of the series.

The only direct indication that the books were published during the events of the series is in TUA, where it is clear that the first two books, at least, were available at a time when Olaf was alive and Prufrock Prep was open. Nevertheless, TRR includes a reference to Klaus' later life. The most natural explanation of this is that there was more than one edition of the early books, a limited edition published as the events were happening, and a revised mass-market edition published later.

In TCC, TSS and TGG there are references to Lemony's sister (in TGG by name), which, given what we later find out, imply that they were written before the end of the series of unfortunate events. This is so even though TCC and TSS, at least, contain material which, again, points to Lemony writing long after the events. (I don't think TGG says anything like that explicitly, though it does contain bits about sugar bowls which imply it was written after the events of TPP, at least.)

While these facts are hard to explain in-story, I think the most economical hypothesis is that the later books also had more than one edition, and fragments from the early editions have been, rather deceptively, preserved in the later ones.

I don't know if you have read The Basic Eight, but it may be illuminating here. It is a combination of Flan's diary written as the events were going on, and her later write-up of them while in prison, and moves confusingly between the two perspectives.

I totally agree that Lemony's imprisonment, escape, false death and return happened some time after the unfortunate events (though from the end of TE it appears his death has been reported several times). It also seems his research was still in progress when he met Beatrice, some ten years after the events.

EDIT: If you are worried about L writing even simpler versions of the books so quickly, bear in mind that Jerome was able to write Odious Lusting After Finance in the time between TEE and TPP.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Hermes

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I will avoid this kind of behavior from now on.

There are clear indications, in both the early and the later books, that Lemony is writing long after the events of the series.

I totally agree with you.

The only direct indication that the books were published during the events of the series is in TUA, where it is clear that the first two books, at least, were available at a time when Olaf was alive and Prufrock Prep was open.

I really want to talk more about this.

Could you just consider reconsidering this evidence with an open mind? I mean, the villain was under Genius, not Olaf. And Olaf died on a desert island, and that was probably not public knowledge. Also, Prufrock Prep could simply have crashed sometime after the publication of book 2 and before the publication of book 5. Hermes, what do you think about this possibility?

[Dante]

I'm not inclined to repeat myself unnecessarily, after more than a decade spent debating this issue, so I'll address only a single point:

Sept 25, 2019 9:03:35 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

Do you believe all these questions can be answered simply by stating that the author has made chronological errors in his narrative? In this case, don't you think we'd better look for alternatives in reading interpretation than simply proposing that Daniel Handler made grotesque chronological errors within the same book (TSS) so that we don't close the door to a pretty story told between the lines of the main text of ASOUE?

With A Series of Unfortunate Events I could make a number of improvisations as I wrote but this entire series had to be conceived before I started writing book one. It has made me take my hat off to all detective writers. I have always asked myself, ‘How hard can it be to write a detective novel?’ without appreciating how cunningly conceived they are.

-Daniel Handler, "Snicket Strikes Again", We Love This Book / The Bookseller, 23rd October 2012.

And as I'll be revealing when the ATWQ Reread gets to ?4, ATWQ is just as riddled with errors and inconsistencies as ASoUE.

I've been with this author long enough to truly understand his work, and enjoy it for what it is. Logic isn't important; atmosphere is.

[Hermes]

Jean Lucio:

I think it's reasonably clear that the three letters in chapter 7 are meant to have been written about the same time, and the other two explicitly relate to events within the series. Also, we know that Nero's letter comes before TPP, since the bank robbery had not yet happened when it was written, though admittedly we could not know that until later; and given that the bank robbery, which has happened by the time of TPP, led to the school's closure, it cannot have stayed open long after the end of the unfortunate events.

The note to Lemony in chapter 9 describes the cow as 'one of O's henchmen'. In addition, Lemony got this message at Prufrock Prep, showing it was still open when the search took place.

I'm sure you can devise ways around these issues. Trying to create a coherent story out of the fragments DH has given us is an admirable aim. But for the reasons Dante has given, I do not think it plausible that it represents the author's intentions. It's clear that his position shifts sometimes - about the date of the schism, about the date of the Quagmire fire: about VFD, given that Monty and Josephine's behaviour does not make sense if they are members of a secret organisation dedicated to combating villainy.

The more complex the mysteries get, the more possible solutions there are, so it doesn't make sense to look for a single right answer. For instance, I have a theory that the lines in the secret letter about the sugar bowl can be reconciled with what L says elsewhere if you read them as saying, not that a sugar bowl is a good place to hide evidence, but that a tea set is a good place to hide evidence, when that evidence is a sugar bowl. (Where do you hide a leaf? In the forest.) But I don't think that's what DH meant when he wrote the lines. Or again, I'm fairly sure the survivor of the fire mentioned in Dr Sebald's script was originally meant to be Quigley; but given that the story Q actually tells does not fit this, we can take it that it is instead the brother of the two orphans later recruited by Kit. You can develop all sorts of stories, but that doesn't mean any of them are The Right Answer.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Hermes,

At the moment I don't believe Mrs. Bass was arrested right after the first bank robbery, and I don't think the bank robbery was really a single event. I'm not an English expert, but the expression used by Nero is "Ms. Bass always seems to take a day off to take care of some business she has with the bank." This seems to indicate that Mrs. Bass from time to time chose a day to rob the bank, and these trips to the bank took a day. In TPP it is indicated that the robberies she commits involve the use of masks. Don't you think it's possible that Mrs. Bass, Carmelita, and others survived the fire and returned to Prufrock Prep? I mean, Mrs. Bass must have continued to rob the bank for some time, so Daniel Handler would choose that phraseology.

In this case, Prufrock Prep closed only when Mrs. Bass was arrested. So Beatrice at TBL was able to go to Prufrock Prep. Surely it had been more than a year between TPP and Beatrice's trip to Prufrock Prep.

[Hermes]

I find it very unlikely that Mrs B would be able to carry out several robberies before she was caught. I take it Nero's letter refers to her planning of the robbery. In any case, by TPP she is on the run, and Nero clearly knows about her crime, as she talks openly about it in front of him. So I don't think the letter in TUA can be later than that.

[Hermes]

Another piece of evidence about the letters has occurred to me. Eleonora's letter to Mr Poe about the danger of telegrams was clearly sent during the action of ASOUE: it arrived about the same time as the Baudelaires' telegram from THH. But another telegram was also received about the same time, the one from Eleonora herself saying Geraldine has lcoked her in the basement - presumably this happened just after she wrote the letter. And in that telegramn she says she will not trust the stories Geraldine tells her so much in future. This makes it unlikely that the article about dangerous books, and Nero's letter referring to it, were written much later.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Feb 15, 2020 13:06:32 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Another piece of evidence about the letters has occurred to me. Eleonora's letter to Mr Poe about the danger of telegrams was clearly sent during the action of ASOUE: it arrived about the same time as the Baudelaires' telegram from THH. But another telegram was also received about the same time, the one from Eleonora herself saying Geraldine has lcoked her in the basement - presumably this happened just after she wrote the letter. And in that telegramn she says she will not trust the stories Geraldine tells her so much in future. This makes it unlikely that the article about dangerous books, and Nero's letter referring to it, were written much later.

Just a moment. The article about dangerous books was written at the time wue miss K went to Prufrock Prep. This happened when Lemony had already published TBB, but before Lemony published TAA. As I explained, between the publication of TWW and TMM there is a hiatus for many years, when probably Prufrock Prep stopped working. TBB was written a few years after the events recorded on it. On the other hand, Eleonora's telegram was written at the time of the events recorded in THH. Regarding the articles made by Eleonora Poe together with Geraldine, we do not know when they were originally written. They were probably old reports, written at the time Geraldine still published information about secret organizations.

[Hermes]

I'm taking it that the article about dangerous books was one of those written through Geraldine's influence (and ultimately that of Olaf, through Esme), and so could not have been published after the basement incident. It's not clear why Eleonora would publish such articles later on, once she had ben freed from Geraldine's influence. This therefore supports the view (which is a natural one in any case) that all three articles were written about the same time, the time of THH.

Or are you supposing that the article was written then, but Mr and Mrs Spats only sent it to Nero later? I suppose that is possible (well, if the other reasons for an early dating can be answered), but it seems odd that they would be digging up an old article that they did not notice when it was written; also, it's not clear why it was written in the first place, if there was not actually a VFD teacher prescribing dangerous books at the time; the other two articles were clearly written with the immediate situation in mind.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Feb 15, 2020 18:09:15 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Or are you supposing that the article was written then, but Mr and Mrs Spats only sent it to Nero later?

That is exactly what I believe.

I suppose that is possible (well, if the other reasons for an early dating can be answered), but it seems odd that they would be digging up an old article that they did not notice when it was written; also, it's not clear why it was written in the first place, if there was not actually a VFD teacher prescribing dangerous books at the time; the other two articles were clearly written with the immediate situation in mind.

The VFD construction committee meeting indicates that VFD members had infiltrated Prufrock Prep. The newspaper must be from that time. Since that time, VFD used teachers with lists of books to recruit neophytes.Geraldine exposed this.