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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 7, 2019 22:47:52 GMT -5
I just thought of something very simple and that makes a lot of sense (at least for me). Dante demonstrated textual evidence that Kit really could not identify the nature of the question mark entity. I demonstrated textual evidence that the question mark entity emerged from the water, and Captain W, Phill, Fernald, the three Qs, and Fiona preferred to go toward the entity rather than flee, even though Kit insisted that they all flee. Dante has already argued that Kit did not see the entity clearly. I disagreed at first. And I defended the idea that the two question mark-shaped entities were very similar to each other. But rereading TPP, I just realized that there is a much simpler answer to Kit's attitude. In fact, it wasn't rereading TPP, but flipping through the book TPP. In TPP chapter 2 we see Kit's face. Unlike the Netiflix series, there is a crucial detail in that print: Kit, in the literary universe, wears glasses. I already suffered from myopia until I had surgery. If you need high-grade glasses like Klaus, and you lose your glasses, you only see smudges. Klaus went through this on TMM, didn't he? In TE, I didn't find a clear indication that Kit lost his glasses in the wreck, but that would be very possible. In fact, Daniel Handler left a hint about this by stating that Klaus kept his glasses in his pocket to protect him. (TE chapter 1), which is why Klaus didn't lose his glasses. But maybe Kit didn't have that concern, because she was on a submarine, not a boat. If she lost her glasses, she really couldn't see if the question mark-shaped entity was the animal or the submarine. On the other hand, everyone else could see it. Kit ran away for not being able to identify. Ink fled because the entity was a much larger animal. And the others went towards the animal because they saw that it was an animal and they believed that it was being controlled by someone.
Captain W had been frightened when he saw a question mark on the sonar and related it to a submarine. But when Captain W saw with his healthy eyes one of these entities as recorded in TE, the captain decided to go to the entity. That's because he knew it wasn't the sub he feared, but the animal being controlled. This allows us to conclude that not necessarily the question mark-shaped submarine in a sonar actually has a question mark shape when viewed with the naked eye, similar to the fact that the Carmelita that appears as an eye in the sonar does not the shape of an eye but an octopus. Maybe because of myopia, Kit couldn't tell if what she was seeing was a subarine or an animal.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Dec 8, 2019 15:49:40 GMT -5
That's very clever, although what data do we have on whether the idea of giving glasses to Kit in the illustrations came from Handler, I wonder? Still, good theory. The issue I take with it isn't so much about the main gist of it as with one of the details of the framing: it seems quite a leap for people to just *assume* the weird, enormous animal is being controlled by someone upon seeing it.
Unless, of course, they've *read* the in-universe ATWQ books and (think they?) recognize the animal as Lemony's Bombinating Beast. But that seems like it's plunging into another theory entirely, one that necessitates a host of implication about the timeline and the availability of the in-universe ATWQ books relative to the ASoUE timeline.
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Post by Dante on Dec 9, 2019 15:56:27 GMT -5
There is no textual evidence that Kit wears glasses. Furthermore, even if she did, it is possible she would not be myopic but hypermetropic, far-sighted; or that she was wearing glasses as a fashion statement rather than to correct a visual deficiency. The apparent glasses Kit is depicted wearing by Brett Helquist in the TPP Chapter Two illustration are shaded, indicating that they may in fact be sunglasses, much like the ones the Baudelaires wear as disguises as concierges, indicating the possibility that Kit was also wearing them as a disguise and would therefore have no longer worn them when at sea among associates, or if the weather was bad or the hour late or early. Only one side of Kit's head is visible in the illustration in question and the glasses are sketched in sufficiently limited detail that it is possible she is actually wearing an eyepatch, and that her other eye was uncovered and had normal vision.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 9, 2019 16:22:44 GMT -5
That's very clever, although what data do we have on whether the idea of giving glasses to Kit in the illustrations came from Handler, I wonder? Still, good theory. The issue I take with it isn't so much about the main gist of it as with one of the details of the framing: it seems quite a leap for people to just *assume* the weird, enormous animal is being controlled by someone upon seeing it. Unless, of course, they've *read* the in-universe ATWQ books and (think they?) recognize the animal as Lemony's Bombinating Beast. But that seems like it's plunging into another theory entirely, one that necessitates a host of implication about the timeline and the availability of the in-universe ATWQ books relative to the ASoUE timeline. This text is a demonstration of my self-centeredness. I simply assumed that almost everyone here had read my previous texts and was following my reasoning, albeit disagreeing. Excuse me. I will summarize all my conclusions so far on the subject. I wrote a text in which I showed evidence that characters like Widdershins and Olaf certainly show that they believe there is a submarine that appears in other submarine sonars in the shape of a question mark. Captain W reportedly stated that a question mark in his sonar was an underwater craft. Captain W said this craft was a worse danger than Olaf. Olaf himself stated that he believed that the entity that appeared in the sonar and which had a question mark shaped sonar itself had a sonar. Olaf hinted that being silent, the entity would not pursue him. Captain W believed the same. This was not an echolocation of an animal, because animals that have echolocation do not need targets to make any sound, because they make their own sound and hear the echo. But only man-made devices called Passive Soares need targets to make sounds for these targets to be detected. So Captain W and Olaf really knew that there was a deadly submarine that was hunting Olaf. I believe Olaf stole the Carmelite submarine from another organization that used sea monster submarines. This theft may have happened at the time of ASOUE's major events or much earlier. The fact is that Olaf believed he was being chased by a submarine of this organization. An organization that used slave labor for the submarine population. A deadly organization, which Captain W feared more than Olaf. On the other hand, there was actually a gigantic question mark-shaped sea serpent in the Averse Oceans at the time of the main events of ASOUE. This animal was seen by the Baudelaire siblings through the glass of the Q submarine porthole. This animal was curliwng and uncurliwing. The aninal did not attack the Q submrine, even though it was very close. Even a submarine would not need a sonar to detect the Q submarine as they were in eye contact. On the other hand, by keeping quiet, the Baudelaires did not frighten the animal. This probably saved their lives, which shows that the animal itself is fierce if not controlled. Captain W was afraid of the submarine. But he was not afraid of the entity that appeared in the book TE, for Captain W was seeing the animal with his own eyes. Captain W would have fled if he had seen the submarine. But he would also have fled if he had believed that animal was acting on instinct. The other supplementary theory to this theory is my SB theory. I believe that inside the SB there is a small musical instrument (something like a whistle) that is capable of controlling the gigantic marine animal in question mark form. In several other texts of mine, I have provided evidence of this. I have already stated that the pursuit of animal control was one of the relevant events of the Olaf Schism, which occurred at the time of Lemony's marriage cancellation. (Please do not confuse with the VFD Great Schism, which happened when Kit was about 4 years old). During the Olaf Schism, one side managed to get the eagles is the VFD lions, while the other side got the crows and reptiles (and amphibians). In addition, during the Olaf Schism, VFD salmon were captured and killed. These animals were synonymous with various forms of power. Animals were used as means of communication, transportation, property security and weapons. These animals could be used to dominate over various environments such as the skies (crows and eagles), mountains (eagles) forests (reptiles) the backlands (lions), rivers (salmon). But how to control the oceans? This control would be possible through the question mark-shaped animal, which can probably also stay out of the water for some time. (The creature emerged from the water at the end of TE). This animal could also be used as a transport if properly trained. But it could also be used as a powerful weapon. Kit stated that Olaf getting his hands on SB would be almost as bad as Olaf getting his hands on the deadly fungus MM. Evidently, Esme's SB contained something that could be used to kill people. But it wasn't the MM itself. That was something less lethal than MM.Also, when Franc tested the Baudelaires' intentions, he asked if the fact that the hotel is near the sea could be any source of insecurity. I believe he asked this to know if those three had any notion about the contents of SB, something that could summon a sea beast to kill people in the hotel.Also, I believe the mysterious taxi driver was taking the SB with him. Lemon claims that a musical instrument was carefully placed in the cab. I believe this musical instrument is the whistle that controlled the sea beast. In addition, VFD birds seem to be controlled by sounds. The double sinister used whistles to control the eagles. In addition, the double sinius used the eagles as a means of transport. BB is also controlled by sounds. So the gigantic marine of Asoue can also be controlled by sounds. But why could Captain W be so sure in TE that this animal was being controlled by some of his allies? That's because Captain W saw the swimmer coming to submarine Q with the SB in her hands. Klaus correctly calculated that the SB ended up at GG. While the children slept, Captain W contacted someone outside submarine Q by telegrams. (So Quigley knew the Baudelaires were inside the Q submarine.) Because of the past information the mysterious woman went to GG using the secret tunnels, and then swam to the Q submarine taking the SB with her. So the kids didn't find the SB there. The mysterious woman convinced Phill and Captain W to leave the Q submarine. The captain knew that the SB was under the control of his ally. So he went toward the animal in TE instead of running away. The animal was used as a means of transport at the end of TE. I believe this because Lemony is not omniscient. Lemony asserts in TE that he knew exactly when the Quaquimires entered a dark, damp place. I defend the idea that this place was the beast's mouth. Lemony knows about when this happened so precisely because the Quaquimires came out alive and could tell their story to Lemony himself or someone Lemony interviewed. Kit, on the other hand, had a different attitude because she could not identify whether that figure was an animal or a submarine. Probably the information Kit had was that inside the sugar bowl there was a powerful weapon capable of summoning a Great Unknown. There is no textual evidence that Kit wears glasses. Furthermore, even if she did, it is possible she would not be myopic but hypermetropic, far-sighted; or that she was wearing glasses as a fashion statement rather than to correct a visual deficiency. The apparent glasses Kit is depicted wearing by Brett Helquist in the TPP Chapter Two illustration are shaded, indicating that they may in fact be sunglasses, much like the ones the Baudelaires wear as disguises as concierges, indicating the possibility that Kit was also wearing them as a disguise and would therefore have no longer worn them when at sea among associates, or if the weather was bad or the hour late or early. Only one side of Kit's head is visible in the illustration in question and the glasses are sketched in sufficiently limited detail that it is possible she is actually wearing an eyepatch, and that her other eye was uncovered and had normal vision. Well, there is textual evidence that the Lemony illustrator tried to closely portray the characters and situations involving the Baudelaires. Also, it is true that these glasses might not be for dealing with myopia. But it could be to deal with myopia. We are talking about possibilities here. If so, that would explain why she could not identify the nature of the entity she saw. She saw the emerged entity, but could not identify whether it was a submarine or an animal. Doubt made her decide to flee. On the other hand, others saw the entity emerging, and based on what they saw made the decision to move towards the entity. They all had some dose of certainty based on what they saw. Kit reportedly saw the entity emerge but did not realize the nature of the entity. You yourself said this is a demonstration that she could not see clearly what that was. This is typical of a person with myopia and without glasses, don't you think? |
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Dec 10, 2019 17:30:28 GMT -5
But why could Captain W be so sure in TE that this animal was being controlled by some of his allies? That's because Captain W saw the swimmer coming to submarine Q with the SB in her hands. Klaus correctly calculated that the SB ended up at GG. While the children slept, Captain W contacted someone outside submarine Q by telegrams. (So Quigley knew the Baudelaires were inside the Q submarine.) Because of the past information the mysterious woman went to GG using the secret tunnels, and then swam to the Q submarine taking the SB with her. So the kids didn't find the SB there. The mysterious woman convinced Phill and Captain W to leave the Q submarine. The captain knew that the SB was under the control of his ally. So he went toward the animal in TE instead of running away. The animal was used as a means of transport at the end of TE. I believe this because Lemony is not omniscient. Lemony asserts in TE that he knew exactly when the Quaquimires entered a dark, damp place. I defend the idea that this place was the beast's mouth. Lemony knows about when this happened so precisely because the Quaquimires came out alive and could tell their story to Lemony himself or someone Lemony interviewed. Kit, on the other hand, had a different attitude because she could not identify whether that figure was an animal or a submarine. Probably the information Kit had was that inside the sugar bowl there was a powerful weapon capable of summoning a Great Unknown. Aaah, okay. That's the part of your theory that I missed. |
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Post by Dante on Dec 11, 2019 11:20:43 GMT -5
Well, there is textual evidence that the Lemony illustrator tried to closely portray the characters and situations involving the Baudelaires. Also, it is true that these glasses might not be for dealing with myopia. But it could be to deal with myopia. We are talking about possibilities here. If so, that would explain why she could not identify the nature of the entity she saw. She saw the emerged entity, but could not identify whether it was a submarine or an animal. Doubt made her decide to flee. On the other hand, others saw the entity emerging, and based on what they saw made the decision to move towards the entity. They all had some dose of certainty based on what they saw. Kit reportedly saw the entity emerge but did not realize the nature of the entity. You yourself said this is a demonstration that she could not see clearly what that was. This is typical of a person with myopia and without glasses, don't you think? I'm not taking issue here with the ends to which you put your conclusion about Kit's sight. I'm merely taking issue with your analysis on its own merits. We can equally well propose that Kit was farther away from the question mark and thus unable to make out much detail for entirely normal reasons; or that she wasn't paying full attention because she was occupied in constructing her Vaporette of Favourite Detritus. We might propose that something in her attitude or personal philosophy made her figuratively blind to something the others could readily see in the Great Unknown. We might also suggest that her account was not entirely truthful. You have plenty of options available without resorting to a distinctly fragile claim to textual evidence. I'll accept your belief that Kit was short-sighted, but I can't accept that you call it canon. I would also, frankly, be spoiled for choice in pointing you to instances of Brett Helquist's illustrations being provably inconsistent with the text. The fact that he's never once drawn the V.F.D. tattoo correctly on Olaf's ankle, even while getting it exactly right elsewhere, would be a good start, though there are other examples. Brett Helquist's art is wonderful and contributes enormously to the aesthetic experience of ASoUE, but it is not a reliable source. |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 11, 2019 11:53:59 GMT -5
I'm not taking issue here with the ends to which you put your conclusion about Kit's sight. I'm merely taking issue with your analysis on its own merits. We can equally well propose that Kit was farther away from the question mark and thus unable to make out much detail for entirely normal reasons; or that she wasn't paying full attention because she was occupied in constructing her Vaporette of Favourite Detritus. We might propose that something in her attitude or personal philosophy made her figuratively blind to something the others could readily see in the Great Unknown. We might also suggest that her account was not entirely truthful. You have plenty of options available without resorting to a distinctly fragile claim to textual evidence. I'll accept your belief that Kit was short-sighted, but I can't accept that you call it canon. I would also, frankly, be spoiled for choice in pointing you to instances of Brett Helquist's illustrations being provably inconsistent with the text. The fact that he's never once drawn the V.F.D. tattoo correctly on Olaf's ankle, even while getting it exactly right elsewhere, would be a good start, though there are other examples. Brett Helquist's art is wonderful and contributes enormously to the aesthetic experience of ASoUE, but it is not a reliable source. Ah understood. I did not know what prints were unreliable ... The truth is that I always gave full attention to the text, and did not stop to think much about the prints. I am not saying that it is canone. I just found it interesting ... But the fact is that it helped me to accept from my heart that Kit probably didn't see the creature clearly and so she didn't know the nature of the entity. I don't think she had reason to lie at that moment. Either way, if possible on the list of possibilities that led Kit not to see the nature of the creature properly, the possibility that she had lost her glasses. |
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