The Relationship between the Mysterious Swimmer and the SB

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Well, before the main text I will summarize some important conclusions from other texts of mine.

1 - In TGG, it is evident that Captain W communicated with people outside the submarine, probably using the telegraph. The evidence I used to prove this is the fact that Quigley knew the Baudelaires were on the submarine, as indicated in the message he sent there. The only way for someone on dry ground to know about this was if someone inside the submarine had sent this information off the submarine.

2 - After SB was launched through the window of VFD headquarters, SB was actually carried by the marine currents into GG. Klaus correctly calculated where the SB was taken. However, by the time Klaus, Sunny, Fiona, and Violet reached the unflooded part of GG, a mysterious woman had already been there. This woman was heading towards Q submarine just as the children were being carried by the current towards the unflooded part of GG. I deduced that this woman removed the SB from there and took it to the submarine. According to Lemony, (TGG chapter 13) this woman was responsible for convincing Captain W to abandon the submarine. At this time, this woman had the SB in hand.

These deductions are logical, and have not raised counterarguments on the part of others (at least not as I recall). In the last text, I came to the conclusion, with Dante's help, that this woman was responsible for delivering the SB to the crows, or she handed the SB to someone who eventually handed the crows to the hotel D.

3 - In another text, I have shown that it is very likely that there is both a submarine that appears as a question mark in a sonar and an animal that appears as a question mark in a sonar and which is also really shaped like a snake. . A giant snake shaped like a question mark.

However, I said a few things on the subject that raised counterarguments, which I realized are really valid. In my quest to prove that inside the sugar bowl there is a whistle that controls the gigantic question mark animal, I stated that Captain W, Phil, and the mysterious woman definitely did not use one of the secret tunnels that linked AA to GG. I had stated this based on the height of Captain W. I had said that his height would prevent Captain W from accessing GG, and this was why Captain W sent children instead of going to the unflooded part himself. . This was evidence that within the SB there was a whistle that controlled the giant beast, for if there was no way Captain W could get off the seabed and reach the shore before the submarine even reached the shore, then he must have used the gigantic animal as a means of transport, and this would be possible because the woman had the whistle in her hands inside the SB. However, Dante correctly explained to me that the GG consisted of a flooded part (where the submarine was "parked") and an unflooded part. Some of the tunnels could facially connect the flooded portion of GG to AA. These tunnels could be the exit route for Captain W, Phil, and the mysterious woman.

Now I finally present another argument that is based on the same principles, along with the principle that Lemony is not a unicient narrator.

Review this excerpt from Chapter 6 of TGG:

"They might have gazed upward and seen the sharp angles of various Vertical Flame Diversions and other secret passageways that once led all the way up to the marine research center and rhetorical advice service, or even spotted the person who was using one of the passageways now. , and probably for the last time, as she made her difficult and dark way toward the Queequeg. "

Lemony refers to the mysterious woman "who was using one of the passageways now, and probably for the last time, as she made her difficult and dark way toward the Queequeg." When I used this excerpt to argue that the woman did not return through one of the secret tunnels out of the seabed, Foxy at the time said quite rightly, "Lemony says that those tunnels were probably not used, but Lemony just said" probably. " They may have come out of the seabed through these tunnels. " I could not argue with these words, for I am one of the chief defenders that Lemony is sometimes mistaken. After all, Lemony is not unicient. In fact, the word "probably" in this passage is proof that Lemony is not unicient. Lemony isn't sure about that.

But then I realized something. I was making affirmations, where I should ask questions. The question I should have asked is "Why does Lemony find it unlikely that one of those tunnels was reused by the mysterious woman and consequently by Captain W and Phil?" Lemony isn't sure if those tunnels were reused or not, but Lemony knows there was another way for the mysterious woman to come out of the seabed without reusing those secret tunnels.

It is Lemony's belief that interests me and that is important to my theory. The information Lemony had access led him to conclude that the mysterious woman probably no longer used those tunnels. Lemony knew that the mysterious woman had most likely gotten SB at GG. Lemony knew that the mysterious woman came out of the submarine wearing the diving suits. Lemony knew what the Great Unknown was and how it could be used. And Lemony knew the true content of SB. Lemony knew the gigantic question mark-shaped animal was nearby the submarine. I deduce that Lemony concluded that it was more likely that the mysterious woman, Captain W and Phil left the bottom of the ocean using the whistle inside the SB to summon the animal and were then transported to the beast's mouth than they had reused the tunnels. This deduction disregards the reality of the facts, for the reality of the facts cannot be proved, for neither is Lemony sure. But this deduction considers Lemony's beliefs and his reasons for thinking in a certain way. And these beliefs exist for a reason. And the reason I believe is that Lemony knew that inside the SB there was a whistle that controlled this legendary animal.

So what do you think?

[Uncle Algernon]

Just a question, why do you always say "question-mark-shaped beast" or "legendary animal" when talking about your hypothetical sea monster, rather than call a spade a spade and a Bombinating Beast a Bombinating Beast? Unless you posit that the animal may not have been any kind of Bombinating Beast, despite being question-mark-shaped and obeying a whistle? But if it's not a Bombinating Beast then why should the object contained in the Sugar Bowl and which gives one control of the creature necessarily be a whistle?

I agree that your assessment of Lemony's statement makeses — his "probably" means he something he's not telling us, even if it also means he's not certain that this off-page knowledge applies. That being said, I feel as though the "probably" could equally mean that he has good reason to think that the Mysterious Swimming Woman died shortly after this event.

And more broadly, it could also be something else entirely: it could just be the narrator temporarily putting himself in the place of character: "she was making her way through these tunnels for what was probably the last time" should then be taken to mean "imagine how she felt: from her perspective, she had good reason to believe this was probably the last time she would be doing this". That could by itself mean a variety of things, from the woman knowing an alternative way out such as your hypothesized whistle, to her expecting to die soon, to a myriad of other things I'm not considering right now.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Dec 30, 2019 19:51:29 GMT -5 Uncle Algernon said:

Just a question, why do you always say "question-mark-shaped beast" or "legendary animal" when talking about your hypothetical sea monster, rather than call a spade a spade and a Bombinating Beast a Bombinating Beast? Unless you posit that the animal may not have been any kind of Bombinating Beast, despite being question-mark-shaped and obeying a whistle? But if it's not a Bombinating Beast then why should the object contained in the Sugar Bowl and which gives one control of the creature necessarily be a whistle?

We currently have a neophyte frequently visiting our communities. And he hasn't read ATWQ yet. In respect to him, I did not want to provide a spoiler.

Also, some people (an expression that means Dante here) convinced me that quoting ATWQ directly in an ASOUE theory is not a good idea, because when Daniel Handler created ASOUE he didn't have ATWQ in mind yet. In other words, the BB was named by Daniel Handler after he wrote this. Technically ASOUE theories need to be supported without ATWQ being one of its columns. I personally believe that Daniel Handler has thought of animals being whistled since ASOUE, and one such example is the VFD eagles. If you stop to think, the bearded, hairless woman said that after the Schism, the eagles had the incendiary side. But the incendiary side didn't have to put the eagles in cages. The incendiary side only had to steal the whistle that controlled the eagles. So the fire extinguishing side could no longer control the eagles. Interestingly, the fire-extinguishing side failed to replicate the whistle that controlled the eagles. This is indicative that making this whistle is a lost technology. Similarly, according to Esmé's words, the contents of the sugar bowl had to be sought in a mission where many died. Before that, SB content was already important to someone. This is an indicative that SB content is an ancient artifact

Dec 30, 2019 19:51:29 GMT -5 Uncle Algernon said:

I agree that your assessment of Lemony's statement makeses — his "probably" means he something he's not telling us, even if it also means he's not certain that this off-page knowledge applies. That being said, I feel as though the "probably" could equally mean that he has good reason to think that the Mysterious Swimming Woman died shortly after this event.

And more broadly, it could also be something else entirely: it could just be the narrator temporarily putting himself in the place of character: "she was making her way through these tunnels for what was probably the last time" should then be taken to mean "imagine how she felt: from her perspective, she had good reason to believe this was probably the last time she would be doing this". That could by itself mean a variety of things, from the woman knowing an alternative way out such as your hypothesized whistle, to her expecting to die soon, to a myriad of other things I'm not considering right now.

I really need to think better about what you said ... In Portuguese the translation implies that the tunnels were never used by anyone. But I believe that even in English, Lemony's "probably" probably means Lemony believes the woman has surfaced elsewhere. At the end of TGG, Lemony wrote again about her. I need to check it out, but I always got the impression that the woman feasted on Captain W and then told him something that convinced them to leave the sub. I never had the feeling that she somehow thought she was going to die or never surface again.

Anyway, it would be strange for Lemony to narrate something like this, and it wasn't something the Baudelaires saw it. Every other time Lemony does a piscicology narration is related to what the Baudelaires felt or thought, or what he himself felt or thought.

[Dante]

Dec 30, 2019 18:35:53 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

Now I finally present another argument that is based on the same principles, along with the principle that Lemony is not a unicient narrator.

Review this excerpt from Chapter 6 of TGG:

"They might have gazed upward and seen the sharp angles of various Vertical Flame Diversions and other secret passageways that once led all the way up to the marine research center and rhetorical advice service, or even spotted the person who was using one of the passageways now. , and probably for the last time, as she made her difficult and dark way toward the Queequeg. "

Lemony refers to the mysterious woman "who was using one of the passageways now, and probably for the last time, as she made her difficult and dark way toward the Queequeg." When I used this excerpt to argue that the woman did not return through one of the secret tunnels out of the seabed, Foxy at the time said quite rightly, "Lemony says that those tunnels were probably not used, but Lemony just said" probably. " They may have come out of the seabed through these tunnels. " I could not argue with these words, for I am one of the chief defenders that Lemony is sometimes mistaken. After all, Lemony is not unicient. In fact, the word "probably" in this passage is proof that Lemony is not unicient. Lemony isn't sure about that.

But then I realized something. I was making affirmations, where I should ask questions. The question I should have asked is "Why does Lemony find it unlikely that one of those tunnels was reused by the mysterious woman and consequently by Captain W and Phil?" Lemony isn't sure if those tunnels were reused or not, but Lemony knows there was another way for the mysterious woman to come out of the seabed without reusing those secret tunnels.

It is Lemony's belief that interests me and that is important to my theory. The information Lemony had access led him to conclude that the mysterious woman probably no longer used those tunnels. Lemony knew that the mysterious woman had most likely gotten SB at GG. Lemony knew that the mysterious woman came out of the submarine wearing the diving suits. Lemony knew what the Great Unknown was and how it could be used. And Lemony knew the true content of SB. Lemony knew the gigantic question mark-shaped animal was nearby the submarine. I deduce that Lemony concluded that it was more likely that the mysterious woman, Captain W and Phil left the bottom of the ocean using the whistle inside the SB to summon the animal and were then transported to the beast's mouth than they had reused the tunnels. This deduction disregards the reality of the facts, for the reality of the facts cannot be proved, for neither is Lemony sure. But this deduction considers Lemony's beliefs and his reasons for thinking in a certain way. And these beliefs exist for a reason. And the reason I believe is that Lemony knew that inside the SB there was a whistle that controlled this legendary animal.

So what do you think?

Very thorough close reading. As you'd expect, I wish to raise a few points:

First of all, let's look over the full quote you have taken as so important: 'They might have gazed upward and seen the sharp angles of various Vertical Flame Diversions and other secret passageways that once led all the way up to the marine research center and rhetorical advice service, or even spotted the person who was using one of the passageways now, and probably for the last time, as she made her difficult and dark way toward the Queequeg.' (TGG p. 127) I would consider it reasonable to highlight a word you've overlooked: That use of 'one'. The swimming woman was using one of those passages, specifically, probably for the last time; which allows for the possibility that she then immediately turned back and used a different passageway.

Second, we have to consider another question: Okay, let's accept for the sake of argument your hypothesis that the best means for the swimming woman (and Widdershins, and Phil) to reach the mainland from Anwhistle Aquatics was via a certain sea serpent. But if that's the case - how did the swimming woman get to Anwhistle Aquatics in the first place? To be honest, I think it's reasonably likely that she just had a speedboat or something moored at the surface. She used the Vertical Flame Diversions to reach Gorgonian Grotto, picked up the sugar bowl, returned through the network of tunnels to the sea to reach the Queequeg, entered and convinced Widdershins and Phil to leave, and then they all swum up to the surface and roared off into the distance - deliberately leaving the Queequeg behind as a refuge for the Baudelaires and Fiona when they finally returned. Whether Widdershins always meant to leave them or whether he simply didn't have time to wait... that's another matter; could go either way. There's a lot of ambiguity over how much time the children spent in that grotto.

We will pass over the possibility that the sugar bowl had already been removed by yet another unknown third party and that the swimming woman was reporting its absence, not its presence, to Widdershins. What's more interesting to me is how the swimming woman was able to anticipate Widdershins's presence, and on what errand she enticed him and Phil away. I hypothesised a speedboat, but if we're considering by just what means the swimming woman delivered the sugar bowl to the crows, it's reasonable to ask why she didn't take any method, whether yours or mine, to get to the hotel well in advance of the Baudelaires and everyone else. Perhaps a covert delivery by night and by flight was thought safer than one made in human hands? And perhaps this was something the swimming woman thought Widdershins and Phil could help facilitate for some reason. It's also conceivable that Widdershins might have taken unexpected steps primarily because he didn't really want the sugar bowl anywhere near Fiona and the Baudelaires if he could help it...

Dec 30, 2019 19:51:29 GMT -5 Uncle Algernon said:

I agree that your assessment of Lemony's statement makeses — his "probably" means he something he's not telling us, even if it also means he's not certain that this off-page knowledge applies. That being said, I feel as though the "probably" could equally mean that he has good reason to think that the Mysterious Swimming Woman died shortly after this event.

And more broadly, it could also be something else entirely: it could just be the narrator temporarily putting himself in the place of character: "she was making her way through these tunnels for what was probably the last time" should then be taken to mean "imagine how she felt: from her perspective, she had good reason to believe this was probably the last time she would be doing this". That could by itself mean a variety of things, from the woman knowing an alternative way out such as your hypothesized whistle, to her expecting to die soon, to a myriad of other things I'm not considering right now.

Impressive analysis.

Dec 30, 2019 22:36:45 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

I personally believe that Daniel Handler has thought of animals being whistled since ASOUE, and one such example is the VFD eagles. If you stop to think, the bearded, hairless woman said that after the Schism, the eagles had the incendiary side. But the incendiary side didn't have to put the eagles in cages. The incendiary side only had to steal the whistle that controlled the eagles. So the fire extinguishing side could no longer control the eagles. Interestingly, the fire-extinguishing side failed to replicate the whistle that controlled the eagles. This is indicative that making this whistle is a lost technology. Similarly, according to Esmé's words, the contents of the sugar bowl had to be sought in a mission where many died. Before that, SB content was already important to someone. This is an indicative that SB content is an ancient artifact

Oh, Jean Lucio. I always disagree with your theories, but they really are fascinating. You make connections that I've never seen anybody else make. They're wrong, but it's almost a shame that they're wrong, because they're brilliantly wrong.

Let's look over the whistle-related passages in TSS:

'[...] while the two sinister visitors reached down the necks of their shirts and retrieved something that was hanging around their necks. Violet and Klaus were surprised to see two shiny silver whistles, like the one Count Olaf had used as part of his disguise at Prufrock Preparatory School, when he was pretending to be a coach.' (TSS, p. 293)

'[...] the woman with hair but no beard blew her whistle, making a loud shriek the Baudelaires remembered from running laps as part of Olaf's scheme at Prufrock Prep.' (TSS, p 312)

We do not pick up from these passages that there is anything particularly unique or special about either the appearance or the sound of these whistles. In fact, the only characteristics the whistles have is being apparently identical in both respects to the whistle used by Coach Genghis for his disguise, a whistle he certainly never used to summon any eagles, even when it would have been very helpful for him to do so. In other words, these whistles look for all the world like completely ordinary whistles. This is probably because they are. The whistles are simply a signal. What matters is who trained the eagles in the first place; and if they have any other trainers who can oppose their activities. As an analogy, consider the V.F.D. lions; we know from the BBRE that Beatrice and Bertrand were both lion-tamers, but after their deaths, clearly there was nobody who could stop Count Olaf from taking the lions for himself. We may similarly assume that there are no rival eagle trainers in V.F.D. to seize control back from the sinister duo.

Dec 30, 2019 22:36:45 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

I always got the impression that the woman feasted on Captain W

She ate him?! ("Feasted," I think, must not be quite the translation you were looking for.)

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I meant, she ate something with the captain ... But apparently they were getting ready for Violet's birthday party when the woman arrived. And thanks for pointing out that my mistakes are "brilliant".

I believe it is trying and making mistakes that some time we get it right. I am sure this is how we came to the conclusion about TGU, which is to me as close to the truth as anyone has ever come. Please keep patience with me, and don't give up trying to prove me wrong! That's what I came here for, after all.

On the eagles, I must acknowledge from your arguments that if DH's goal were to point out that the whistles are somehow special, DH would use other words to describe their sound, just as he described the sound of the BB statuette. It's a shame ... it looks like I'll need to throw this argument in the trash. But something like that will appear in my Mallahan Brochure Fanfic.

Dec 31, 2019 14:21:32 GMT -5 Dante said:

We will pass over the possibility that the sugar bowl had already been removed by yet another unknown third party and that the swimming woman was reporting its absence, not its presence, to Widdershins. What's more interesting to me is how the swimming woman was able to anticipate Widdershins's presence, and on what errand she enticed him and Phil away. I hypothesised a speedboat, but if we're considering by just what means the swimming woman delivered the sugar bowl to the crows, it's reasonable to ask why she didn't take any method, whether yours or mine, to get to the hotel well in advance of the Baudelaires and everyone else. Perhaps a covert delivery by night and by flight was thought safer than one made in human hands? And perhaps this was something the swimming woman thought Widdershins and Phil could help facilitate for some reason. It's also conceivable that Widdershins might have taken unexpected steps primarily because he didn't really want the sugar bowl anywhere near Fiona and the Baudelaires if he could help it...

Regarding how the mysterious woman knew that Captain W was there, it is clear to me that Captain W warned someone outside the submarine of his location. This information reached the mysterious woman. She went there to pick up SB knowing that Captain W would be there too.

The right question is, what is the need for this woman to get there before Captain W's team? Why didn't VFD just let Captain W's team get the SB? Now that you have raised these questions, Dante, I am more convinced that this woman was a member of a VFD faction that had interests of its own. If you stop to think, SB's arrival at the Hotel had nothing to do with Dewey's plan. SB's arrival at the hotel was only a hindrance to Dewey's plan. If the goal was to lure VFD's enemies, it wasn't necessary to actually send SB to the hotel. It would only take the news that SB would arrive at the hotel. I have already put forward my theory that there was a faction formed by the supporters of George A's ideas still at work during the time of ASOUE's major events. This mysterious woman tried to intercept Captain W.'s search for SB. I take the moment to raise another hypothesis: JS was probably one of Gregor A.'s supporters. JS was going to pick up SB at VFD Headquarters. (The message on the refrigerator was intended for JS). JS asked for sugar at the hotel, showing that he (or she) had arrived at the hotel to wait for the SB.
Dewey talked about JS with Hal, but apparently Dewey was referring to Justice Straus.
According to OLaf, the W family never knew which side of the schism to support. Considering that Mrs. W was a supporter of George A, because of her connection with the fungus MM, I can conclude that the Schism to which Olaf referred when talking about it was the schism of George A. The woman must have convinced Captain W that this was the time to support George A.'s ideas
I also explained why I believe the SB contained something that could kill people. I believe the SB and MM can be used as weapons, so the fact that Olaf had them would be almost equally bad. Killing enemies has always been the main idea of ​​George A.'s supporters. At the end of TGG, we read that Lemony considers it wrong that Captain W helped destroy AA. By doing so, however, Captain W was evidently trying to destroy the deadly fungus MM that could be used as a weapon of mass destruction. Lemony's point and view seems to indicate that he himself is a supporter of George A.'s ideals. So Lemony must have been the one who played the headquarters SB. So Lemony was the mysterious taxi driver smoking (the cigarette being indicative that his morale was a little corrupted at the time.) So Lemony helped another mysterious woman out of the hotel and took the SB from there. That's why Lemony participated in the theft of SB. And so Lemony knew of that swimmer's existence, because he was actively participating in the plan of George A's supporters involving the SB.

[Uncle Algernon]

Dec 31, 2019 14:21:32 GMT -5 Dante said:

Let's look over the whistle-related passages in TSS:

'[...] while the two sinister visitors reached down the necks of their shirts and retrieved something that was hanging around their necks. Violet and Klaus were surprised to see two shiny silver whistles, like the one Count Olaf had used as part of his disguise at Prufrock Preparatory School, when he was pretending to be a coach.' (TSS, p. 293)

'[...] the woman with hair but no beard blew her whistle, making a loud shriek the Baudelaires remembered from running laps as part of Olaf's scheme at Prufrock Prep.' (TSS, p 312)

We do not pick up from these passages that there is anything particularly unique or special about either the appearance or the sound of these whistles. In fact, the only characteristics the whistles have is being apparently identical in both respects to the whistle used by Coach Genghis for his disguise, a whistle he certainly never used to summon any eagles, even when it would have been very helpful for him to do so.

There I must disagree. I don't agree with Jean Lucio's interpretation of what's inside the Sugar Bowl, but I do think his idea that the whistles are special in and of themselves, and that they are heirlooms, makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the Bombinating Beast plotline. Let me submit my counteranalysis of these two quotes: why would the Baudelaires so particularly associate the appearance and noise of the Duo's whistles with Coach Genghis's own? Had they never heard a whistle before that? If they saw someone wearing sport shoes (any kind of sport shoes, mind, not specifically the VFD Disguise Kit ones), would they go "wow! just like Coach Genghis!"? No, it seems much more likely that Lemony is hinting that neither Genghis's nor the Duo's whistles are ordinary. They're specifically of the same make; VFD whistles. 

Of course, this could just mean that they're the type of whistle that VFD agents are outfitted with, without being anything special as far as whistles go. But I'm very willing to believe that they're whistles created specifically to summon animals, myself. You act as though "but it would have been very useful for Olaf to summon eagles!" refutes this, but Olaf is not exactly a master of using all the opportunities given to him at a given moment; I think it would actually be entirely in-character for him to have used as a random part of a disguise what was actually a rare animal-summoning gizmo, never realizing what it was. Similar sort of energy giving a Verdant Flammable Device to cook with, you know? 

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Jan 1, 2020 7:05:19 GMT -5 Uncle Algernon said:

Dec 31, 2019 14:21:32 GMT -5 Dante said:

Let's look over the whistle-related passages in TSS:

'[...] while the two sinister visitors reached down the necks of their shirts and retrieved something that was hanging around their necks. Violet and Klaus were surprised to see two shiny silver whistles, like the one Count Olaf had used as part of his disguise at Prufrock Preparatory School, when he was pretending to be a coach.' (TSS, p. 293)

'[...] the woman with hair but no beard blew her whistle, making a loud shriek the Baudelaires remembered from running laps as part of Olaf's scheme at Prufrock Prep.' (TSS, p 312)

We do not pick up from these passages that there is anything particularly unique or special about either the appearance or the sound of these whistles. In fact, the only characteristics the whistles have is being apparently identical in both respects to the whistle used by Coach Genghis for his disguise, a whistle he certainly never used to summon any eagles, even when it would have been very helpful for him to do so.

There I must disagree. I don't agree with Jean Lucio's interpretation of what's inside the Sugar Bowl, but I do think his idea that the whistles are special in and of themselves, and that they are heirlooms, makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the Bombinating Beast plotline. Let me submit my counteranalysis of these two quotes: why would the Baudelaires so particularly associate the appearance and noise of the Duo's whistles with Coach Genghis's own? Had they never heard a whistle before that? If they saw someone wearing sport shoes (any kind of sport shoes, mind, not specifically the VFD Disguise Kit ones), would they go "wow! just like Coach Genghis!"? No, it seems much more likely that Lemony is hinting that neither Genghis's nor the Duo's whistles are ordinary. They're specifically of the same make; VFD whistles. 

Of course, this could just mean that they're the type of whistle that VFD agents are outfitted with, without being anything special as far as whistles go. But I'm very willing to believe that they're whistles created specifically to summon animals, myself. You act as though "but it would have been very useful for Olaf to summon eagles!" refutes this, but Olaf is not exactly a master of using all the opportunities given to him at a given moment; I think it would actually be entirely in-character for him to have used as a random part of a disguise what was actually a rare animal-summoning gizmo, never realizing what it was. Similar sort of energy giving a Verdant Flammable Device to cook with, you know? 

I think I'll go to the dumpster to get my argument back ... Thanks.

My head exploded now. It's been a long time since I had this feeling.

[Hermes]

Jan 1, 2020 7:05:19 GMT -5 Uncle Algernon said:

You act as though "but it would have been very useful for Olaf to summon eagles!" refutes this, but Olaf is not exactly a master of using all the opportunities given to him at a given moment; I think it would actually be entirely in-character for him to have used as a random part of a disguise what was actually a rare animal-summoning gizmo, never realizing what it was. Similar sort of energy giving a Verdant Flammable Device to cook with, you know? 

One might add that we don't need to think an eagle-summoning whistle would summon eagles anywhere: perhaps it only does so in the mountains, where the eagles are nearby.

[Dante]

Jan 1, 2020 7:05:19 GMT -5 Uncle Algernon said:

Dec 31, 2019 14:21:32 GMT -5 Dante said:

Let's look over the whistle-related passages in TSS:

'[...] while the two sinister visitors reached down the necks of their shirts and retrieved something that was hanging around their necks. Violet and Klaus were surprised to see two shiny silver whistles, like the one Count Olaf had used as part of his disguise at Prufrock Preparatory School, when he was pretending to be a coach.' (TSS, p. 293)

'[...] the woman with hair but no beard blew her whistle, making a loud shriek the Baudelaires remembered from running laps as part of Olaf's scheme at Prufrock Prep.' (TSS, p 312)

We do not pick up from these passages that there is anything particularly unique or special about either the appearance or the sound of these whistles. In fact, the only characteristics the whistles have is being apparently identical in both respects to the whistle used by Coach Genghis for his disguise, a whistle he certainly never used to summon any eagles, even when it would have been very helpful for him to do so.

There I must disagree. I don't agree with Jean Lucio's interpretation of what's inside the Sugar Bowl, but I do think his idea that the whistles are special in and of themselves, and that they are heirlooms, makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the Bombinating Beast plotline. Let me submit my counteranalysis of these two quotes: why would the Baudelaires so particularly associate the appearance and noise of the Duo's whistles with Coach Genghis's own? Had they never heard a whistle before that? If they saw someone wearing sport shoes (any kind of sport shoes, mind, not specifically the VFD Disguise Kit ones), would they go "wow! just like Coach Genghis!"? No, it seems much more likely that Lemony is hinting that neither Genghis's nor the Duo's whistles are ordinary. They're specifically of the same make; VFD whistles. 

Of course, this could just mean that they're the type of whistle that VFD agents are outfitted with, without being anything special as far as whistles go. But I'm very willing to believe that they're whistles created specifically to summon animals, myself. You act as though "but it would have been very useful for Olaf to summon eagles!" refutes this, but Olaf is not exactly a master of using all the opportunities given to him at a given moment; I think it would actually be entirely in-character for him to have used as a random part of a disguise what was actually a rare animal-summoning gizmo, never realizing what it was. Similar sort of energy giving a Verdant Flammable Device to cook with, you know? 

You didn't trace your argument back far enough, I'm afraid, though admittedly that is not surprising as I do not believe you are arguing in earnest. Had you consulted TAA for context on Olaf's use of whistles, you would not have made such an argument. TAA's lines on Coach Genghis's whistle are as follows: '[...] and around his neck was a shiny silver whistle' (p. 66); 'Genghis blew his whistle and the Baudelaire orphans began to run' (p. 117); 'Coach Genghis kept blowing his whistle' (p. 118, 119); 'Genghis began blowing his whistle and ordered the Baudelaire orphans to begin running' (p. 135); 'the shrieks of Genghis's whistle' (ibid.). What do we learn from these sole narratorial statements about the whistle specifically? That it's kept in good condition, which is unlikely for Olaf and therefore indicates that it's a recent acquisition; its shape is never mentioned, indicating that it appears ordinary; and its precise sound isn't mentioned until the fifth (and final) occasion on which it is blown, indicating that its sound is also not heard to be remarkable. Conclusion: It's a perfectly ordinary whistle, probably bought from a store shortly beforehand. We also see here, incidentally, a prompt for a perfectly ordinary whistle being used as a signal to compel intimidated animals (i.e. the Baudelaires) into unwanted action. So the whistle was never remarkable; and is used as a point of comparison in TSS because that is the only time the Baudelaires had heard a whistle recently - and, arguably, to demonstrate by reference to an unremarkable whistle that the subsequent whistles are equally unremarkable in and of themselves.

Additionally, if we consult the U.A.'s reference for V.F.D.'s Gym Teacher Disguise, we see the following components named: 'suit (sweat) + shoes (running) + turban' (p. 107). What is noticeably not included, here or in the alphabetical list of disguise materiasl (p. 103), is a whistle (shiny, silver - or otherwise). This deals a hammer blow to the notion that there is a V.F.D. make of whistle, and following on from the evident unremarkability of said whistle in the text of TAA itself, clearly demonstrates that the whistle is of an utterly generic variety.

[Uncle Algernon]

Jan 1, 2020 17:47:30 GMT -5 Dante said:

Additionally, if we consult the U.A.'s reference for V.F.D.'s Gym Teacher Disguise, we see the following components named: 'suit (sweat) + shoes (running) + turban' (p. 107). What is noticeably not included, here or in the alphabetical list of disguise materiasl (p. 103), is a whistle (shiny, silver - or otherwise). This deals a hammer blow to the notion that there is a V.F.D. make of whistle, and following on from the evident unremarkability of said whistle in the text of TAA itself, clearly demonstrates that the whistle is of an utterly generic variety.

While you are correct that I'm not especially married to this "the whistles are special" idea, just trying to read new interesting possibilities into the text for entertainment's sake — hence, indeed, not having bothered to go back and check other mentions of Olaf's whistle which might contradict this…

…well, I nevertheless want to keep pushing this possibly-wrongheaded argument a bit further, by noting that the part I quoted above, specifically, actually works in the scenario I had in mind. If Olaf uses a previous animal-summoning whistle as part of his Gym Teacher Disguise, then as I said, it is in error, having quite forgotten what the whistle was originally for; it wouldn't be a part of the Gym Teacher Disguise as far as VFD is concerned, but rather an entirely unrelated device. Olaf, while rummaging through his (naturally untidy) stuff while putting together the TAA disguise, would stumble upon the whistle and think, "huh, this old thing. I'd forgotten I even owned that. Could make a nice addition to the disguise, I quite fancy the thought of whistling those orphans' ears out every chance I get."

Also—

Jan 1, 2020 17:47:30 GMT -5 Dante said:

(…) a perfectly ordinary whistle being used as a signal to compel intimidated animals (i.e. the Baudelaires) into unwanted action. (…)

—okay, that made me chuckle.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Now that I've taken my argument from the trash, I can say this: The sinister duo's whistles just look LIKE Olaf's whistle. They are not necessarily identical. Secondly, for untrained eyes, all whistles are equal. Thirdly, for untrained ears, all whistles are equal. Fourth, the whistles used by the sinister duo are not cheap whistles. They are silver whistles, and Daniel Handler indicating that the whistles are of noble material may be evidence that those whistles are special. And finally, (this is going to be the most forced of all) the name Anwistle may be a hint that Daniel Handler created to indicate what's in the sugar bowl: A wistle. (I'm just kidding). In any case, Lemony's description of the whistles is from the Baudelaire point of view, and does not necessarily necessarily represent reality. 

Arguing Doylist, I don't believe DH thought of SB content until TSS. I think when he wrote TGG he had that in mind, since it seems that DH would come back rereading his books to reuse details. When DH saw the detail of Olaf's whistle he had the idea of ​​placing whistles to control animals. That is why the whistles that controlled the eagles came. Like I said, apparently he thought of TSS that animals could be released, but to be able to control them would require a specific tool. In TPP, DH took advantage of the idea of ​​animals being controlled with the crows plot taking the SB to the hotel. VFD crows, similar to birds, did not stay in cages. They needed to be controlled in some way. Another evidence that I think points to the idea of ​​beast control is that there is a mysterious woman in TPP wearing a diving helmet looking with a flashlight to the bottom of the ocean. I believe he was watching if the animal was around.

[Hermes]

I have no special attachment to this theory - as I've often said, I don't think there is any theory that can make sense of everything said about the SB - but I would like to make Jean Lucio a present of an idea. It's true that the whistle is not part of the VFD disguise kit. But there is something which, though not strictly part of the disguise kit, is meant to accompany it: a sugar bowl. Is this, perhaps, for volunteers to keep their whistles? For some, eagle-summoning whistles; for others, perhaps, crow-summoning or lion-summoning whistles; and in one special case, an underwater-monster-summoning whistle.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Jan 4, 2020 16:46:36 GMT -5 Hermes said:

I have no special attachment to this theory - as I've often said, I don't think there is any theory that can make sense of everything said about the SB - but I would like to make Jean Lucio a present of an idea. It's true that the whistle is not part of the VFD disguise kit. But there is something which, though not strictly part of the disguise kit, is meant to accompany it: a sugar bowl. Is this, perhaps, for volunteers to keep their whistles? For some, eagle-summoning whistles; for others, perhaps, crow-summoning or lion-summoning whistles; and in one special case, an underwater-monster-summoning whistle.

This is getting better and better.