Previous owner of Olaf's submarine

[TheAsh]

One of the more interesting mysteries is who the previous owner of Olaf's octopus's submarine is.

“This submarine is one of the greatest things I’ve ever stolen,” he bragged. “It has everything I’ll need to defeat V.F.D. once and for all. It has a sonar system, so I can rid the seas of V.F.D. submarines. It has an enormous flyswatter, so I can rid the skies of V.F.D. planes. It has a lifetime supply of matches, so I can rid the world of V.F.D. headquarters. It has several cases of wine that I plan to drink up myself, and a closet full of very stylish outfits for my girlfriend. And best of all, it has plenty of opportunities for children to do hard labor! Ha ha hedonism!”

Also

“We know what the brig is,” Klaus said.
“Then you know it’s not a very pleasant place,” the villain said. “The previous owner used it to hold traitors captive, and I see no reason to break with tradition.

Who was the previous owner? There's one other place where we find mention of an octopus:

On the bow of the boat was an ornately carved figurehead, a word which here means “wooden statue of an octopus attacking a man in a diving suit,"

Lemony goes on to point out this carving of the octopus three more times. Who built that boat? 

We will leave by a boat B has built and named after me.

How it got to the hotel is another mystery, for another time, but Bertrand built this boat. We know that things in ASOUE follow patterns, and generally repeat. This boat was first called the "Beatrice", then the "Carmelita" then the "Olaf". Interestingly, the octopus submarine also had two of those three names: 

“The Carmelita,” he admitted quietly. “I wanted to call it the Olaf, but somebody made me change it.”

Thus, it seems to me that the octopus as well had three names. Besides for "Olaf" and "Carmelita", it was originally called "Beatrice". Thus, the boat's original owner was Bertrand, and he carved an octopus strangling a man onto his boat's figurehead as a representation of the boat he was shipwrecked from and ended up in the island: The Beatrice octopus submarine. (Possibly, the previous owner's prisoner was none other than Olaf himself, as in ASOUE, there is a very high level of karma (see the birdcages). 

Why the Baudelaire parents would own a submarine with all that equipment is for another theory. 

[Dante]

Given that the figurehead existed to disguise the Medusoid Mycelium helmet, it seems more likely that it was a subsequent addition, not unlike the additional nameplates added by Olaf and Carmelita. The incongruity of Bertrand having carved such a disturbing figurehead is in itself a product of the boat almost certainly not having originally been conceived as having much in the way of backstory; in TPP there's no indication it was anything other than a random boat Olaf purchased for Carmelita - which background is actually confirmed on the page, by the way:

"You'll do what we say, Carmelita," Olaf growled. "I already purchased that ridiculous outfit for you, and that boat for you to prowl the swimming pool. Point that weapon at Dewey this instant!"

-TPP, p. 222

Interesting though the submarine's backstory is, there's no indication in the series that it relates to anyone previously encountered; nor is there any obligation that it should, either. The final books in the series place considerable emphasis on the idea of ASoUE taking place in an extensive nexus of stories which cannot all be told, and encourages the reader to invent their own answers rather than looking for them in the official narrative.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I have already pointed out the structural details of the Carmelita, that it was built by people who supported slave labor, and that they already knew that there would be rebellions, and that is why they created a dungeon. I have also argued that the fact that the Carmelita looks like a gigantic and deadly sea monster is evidence that it built it was the same organization that built the submarine that in a sonar looks like a question mark. Captain W. is afraid of this organization and believes that there is someone in this organization worse than Olaf. I believe that Olaf stole this organization's submarine, (the theft may have happened a long time ago), which is why he flees so much from the submarine that it appears as a question mark in the sonar, because he knows that the members of that sinister organization are coming recover what is theirs and kill the thief. This organization builds submarines in the shape of sea monsters, so they built one in the shape of a giant octopus and the other in the shape of a sea snake. I think this is more plausible than believing that Bertrand built it. Why would he create a submarine based on slave labor, when he is part of an organization formed by volunteer members? Even Ismael tried to promote the idea that those he led were volunteers.

[TheAsh]

Feb 3, 2020 12:09:19 GMT -5 Dante said:

Given that the figurehead existed to disguise the Medusoid Mycelium helmet, it seems more likely that it was a subsequent addition, not unlike the additional nameplates added by Olaf and Carmelita. The incongruity of Bertrand having carved such a disturbing figurehead is in itself a product of the boat almost certainly not having originally been conceived as having much in the way of backstory; in TPP there's no indication it was anything other than a random boat Olaf purchased for Carmelita - which background is actually confirmed on the page, by the way:

"You'll do what we say, Carmelita," Olaf growled. "I already purchased that ridiculous outfit for you, and that boat for you to prowl the swimming pool. Point that weapon at Dewey this instant!"

-TPP, p. 222

Interesting though the submarine's backstory is, there's no indication in the series that it relates to anyone previously encountered; nor is there any obligation that it should, either. The final books in the series place considerable emphasis on the idea of ASoUE taking place in an extensive nexus of stories which cannot all be told, and encourages the reader to invent their own answers rather than looking for them in the official narrative.

Actually, I think that Bertrand used the figurehead for the same purpose as Olaf, to hide whatever Beatrice was referring to in her commonplace book entry. Since we know that things repeat and are identical to each other, one can use one story to determine the other. And I disagree with your intepretation of the end: I think DH was telling us that many stories are similar and contain similar details (as we see with the same details happening to different people) so one can use one to determine the other. And, yes, most of the answers to the big questions can be found in the official narrative (DH has confirmed Sugar Bowl as one example, and S Theodora as another) and the fact that Lemony claims that they cannot doesn't ring me as true (see for example the fan belt, where he claims he couldn't find it, but it does show up explicitly somewhere else). Also keep in mind that Ishmael claims that the story with the one-eyebrowed girl is part of the same story as the Baudelaires.

Of course there is no obligation that the sub has a backstory, when all these details fit, I assume it does, and it was written intentionally so.

Furthermore, in regards to Olaf providing the boat, the main purpose of that sentence is to show that the boat came from Olaf, not the hotel. 

There's additional proof to my theory that I forgot to mention:  The anagram BEATRICE SANK. However, we know that all three kids survived. Furthermore, Lemony in TE claims not to know what happened to The Beatrice boat, so how can that anagram reveal anything? But if the submarine is BEATRICE too, the anagram makes a lot of sense (that's how the parents got to the island). In addition, it makes sense that there is two boats by the name of Beatrice, because we know there are two people by the name Beatrice, and things in ASOUE tend to come in patterns.


 

[TheAsh]

Feb 3, 2020 17:39:30 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

I have already pointed out the structural details of the Carmelita, that it was built by people who supported slave labor, and that they already knew that there would be rebellions, and that is why they created a dungeon. I have also argued that the fact that the Carmelita looks like a gigantic and deadly sea monster is evidence that it built it was the same organization that built the submarine that in a sonar looks like a question mark. Captain W. is afraid of this organization and believes that there is someone in this organization worse than Olaf. I believe that Olaf stole this organization's submarine, (the theft may have happened a long time ago), which is why he flees so much from the submarine that it appears as a question mark in the sonar, because he knows that the members of that sinister organization are coming recover what is theirs and kill the thief. This organization builds submarines in the shape of sea monsters, so they built one in the shape of a giant octopus and the other in the shape of a sea snake. I think this is more plausible than believing that Bertrand built it. Why would he create a submarine based on slave labor, when he is part of an organization formed by volunteer members? Even Ismael tried to promote the idea that those he led were volunteers.

So did Olaf and Sinister Duo. That proves nothing. Also, VFD loves slave labor. That's basically the whole organization. BTW, If you believe Beatrice was evil, what's wrong with thinking that Bertrand was as well? (I don't think they were evil, and there's a deeper purpose for the submarine - for punishing VFD traitors and villians. Keep in mind Beatrice and Bertrand supported Gregor Anwhistle's operations (unlike Kit) and thus are probably not too opposed to punishment.)

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Feb 4, 2020 4:26:40 GMT -5 TheAsh said:

Feb 3, 2020 17:39:30 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

I have already pointed out the structural details of the Carmelita, that it was built by people who supported slave labor, and that they already knew that there would be rebellions, and that is why they created a dungeon. I have also argued that the fact that the Carmelita looks like a gigantic and deadly sea monster is evidence that it built it was the same organization that built the submarine that in a sonar looks like a question mark. Captain W. is afraid of this organization and believes that there is someone in this organization worse than Olaf. I believe that Olaf stole this organization's submarine, (the theft may have happened a long time ago), which is why he flees so much from the submarine that it appears as a question mark in the sonar, because he knows that the members of that sinister organization are coming recover what is theirs and kill the thief. This organization builds submarines in the shape of sea monsters, so they built one in the shape of a giant octopus and the other in the shape of a sea snake. I think this is more plausible than believing that Bertrand built it. Why would he create a submarine based on slave labor, when he is part of an organization formed by volunteer members? Even Ismael tried to promote the idea that those he led were volunteers.

So did Olaf and Sinister Duo. That proves nothing. Also, VFD loves slave labor. That's basically the whole organization. BTW, If you believe Beatrice was evil, what's wrong with thinking that Bertrand was as well? (I don't think they were evil, and there's a deeper purpose for the submarine - for punishing VFD traitors and villians. Keep in mind Beatrice and Bertrand supported Gregor Anwhistle's operations (unlike Kit) and thus are probably not too opposed to punishment.)

Hi, I didn't say I found proofs ... I said what I believe at the moment, and explained the reasons why I believe it. I am also an advocate of the phrase "Daniel Handler duplicate events to confuse you". I created that phrase, actually. I'm glad that you understand the meaning of it, and want to apply it to other events besides the ones I used. But you're going to need something better than that to convince me that Bertrand built that submarine. About Beatrice being a "bad" person. I didn't say exactly that. I think one of ASOUE's clearest lessons is that people are not only good or bad, but they are like a salad. Beatrice is someone very important to me, and perhaps a murder planner. Perhaps she planned to kill VFD's enemies along with Gregor. But she was inserted in a complex context, involving the love of her life, loyalty to an organization that seeks peace, love for her children, and issues such as whether it is worth killing someone in the name of personal happiness or world peace. . These are difficult questions and would fill thousands of pages of many, many books to deal with ethics involving decisions that she had to make. An important thing about the phrase "Daniel Handler creates duplications to confuse you" is that the confusion is also caused in reverse. You may be looking at one thing believing that it is two things, but it is actually just one. I got confused like that with regard to the SB that arrived at Hotel D through the crows. I believed that there was a replica of the SB involved in the plan. But after much scrutiny, I realized that there was none of that. There was only one SB arriving at Hotel D before Dewey's death.

[TheAsh]

"Daniel Handler creates duplications to confuse you"

I don't agree with that phrase. I think he duplicates events in order to educate you. It's so that 1) you can extrapolate from one event to another, so even if there is clear evidence of two events, you can assume that what happened here happened there, and 2) it answers up a lot of the chronological issues, because he could always say it happened twice.

(Headcanon of mine: DH has described ASOUE as being governed by a world of books. Thus, if there's a poem or a literary reference, in the Averse it will come out that way in that world. Thus, things will keep repeating like an infinite loop, because the books don't change. That's why most characters in ASOUE feel like they are governed by destiny or are part of a vast conspiracy. That's because their lives are governed by books.)

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Unfortunately, we are not in Daniel Handler's mind as to whether he wanted to confuse the reader or enlighten the reader by creating replicas of situations. I can only say that if he wanted to elucidate the reader, he did a terrible job.

[thedoctororwell]

My interpretation is that the figurehead indeed represented a man in a diving suit being attacked by an octopus. Olaf then sawed off the head of the statue and replaced it with the Queequeg's diving helmet. One could assume that there's a wooden diving helmet in the trash somewhere... Maybe Olaf painted the helmet with a wood-like color to reinforce the illusion?

I made a hypothesis that Hangfire was the original owner of the Carmelita submarine:
snicketsleuth.tumblr.com/post/187718032575/what-is-the-great-unknown

Then again a lot of VFD members drink wine and the organization has been known to use infant slaves in the past. So any senior member of VFD could be suspected of being the previous owner.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Although it is possible, I think it is unlikely. The former VFD split into two organizations during the Great Schism, at the time of Lemony's early childhood. Olaf was afraid of a hypothetical submarine that could be chasing him. Why did he believe so much that what was chasing him was a submarine? He must have deduced that an ally of the former Carmelite owner was trying to retrieve his submarine. Someone who would be Olaf's enemy and Widdershins' enemy. Widdershins also believed that this was a submarine. The enemy of two enemies ... This seems to be a third organization ...

[Mr. Dent]

Actually, I was the previous owner. Sorry for the confusion, all.