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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on May 4, 2020 21:57:34 GMT -5
They don't do it intensionally, but since they decided to be on their own, they ended up taking death and destruction to every corner. But I will highlight especially the SB and Hotel D. If Klaus had not found the SB's location, it is likely that the SB would be hidden forever in GG. Had he not done so, the deadly fungus MM would not have been rediscovered. If they hadn't gone to Hotel D, Dewey would still be alive. And in this case, all the islanders would still be in their quiet lives. If they had followed Mr. Poe peacefully that day on Brinny Beach instead of getting into Kit's taxi, perhaps Dewey's real plan would have worked and the Hotel would not have been destroyed. But the Baudelaires' interventions at Hotel D did not help at all and still hampered the plan itself. In a way, it was Kit's fault for putting them there. Putting the Baudelaires there was only a complicating factor for Dewey, who had to deal with yet another unexpected variable in his plan, the safety of the Baudelaires.
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Post by Dante on May 6, 2020 3:22:54 GMT -5
An interesting claim. Let's play it out and see if we can lay claim to any certainties.
TVV: You've marked the point at which the Baudelaires become "heralds of Chaos" as the point at which they decide to start acting independently, so we'll remove them from the picture here, in TVV. Let's say the Baudelaires fail to escape and Olaf fails to liberate one of them, and they all die at the stake. The major change here is that the Quagmires are still in play; you could even propose that the Baudelaires might survive long enough for the Quagmires to be freed and for them then to flee and take the role of the Baudelaires in succeeding books, or, if they remain in Olaf's clutches, could escape in any one book. But in the interests of tidiness, we'll put them in the hands of authorities and away from Olaf, too, since in those circumstances their actions become less unpredictable; but bear in mind that they could quite conceivably have taken the Baudelaires' role.
THH: Olaf and his troupe came here in search of the Snicket File, lingering only for a botched attempt to murder Violet - is it reasonable to speculate, incidentally, that they took so long about it because they were hoping to lure out the other Baudelaires? Either way, probably the only real change here is that they actually get their hands on page 13 of the Snicket File themselves, and perhaps they would have a different interpretation of it than the Baudelaires... or perhaps not. Olaf stops taking an interest in the idea of a survivor of the fire after TSS, but at that point he has the full Snicket File, so for the time being we'll say his response to page 13 is the same. Heimlich Hospital probably still burns down as Olaf didn't really seem to have too definite a motive for doing that, so it may just be that he was covering his tracks more generally; but the henchperson of indeterminate gender, not being under the obligation of chasing the Baudelaires, would probably survive this time.
TCC: Olaf and his troupe came here to ask Madame Lulu three questions: The location of the surviving Baudelaire parent, the location of the rest of the Snicket File, and the location of the Baudelaires. In canon, he never got to ask the second question, but it ended up not mattering; here, he wouldn't need to ask the third question, so Madame Lulu would probably have to make up a location for the Snicket File. It's not especially clear why Olaf is so driven to track down the surviving Baudelaire parent, but he clearly is, so let's say he would ask that same question anyway and receive the same response, and go after the surviving parent first, even assuming Madame Lulu doesn't declare the Snicket file to also be in the Mortmain Mountains (although I think there's a good chance she would). The creation of the lion pit and the planned execution of the freaks was Olaf's idea to curry favour with Madame Lulu, and Madame Lulu's death was ultimately the result of Esmé's jealousy, so those events would probably still play out as before, with perhaps the only difference being that the bald man would probably still be around.
TSS: Very little of what happens in this book is attributable to the Baudelaires; the destruction of V.F.D. headquarters by the sinister duo, their meeting with Olaf and reading of the Snicket File, Olaf's loss of interest in the survivor of the fire and discovery of the last safe place, the recruitment of the Snow Scouts - there's no reason to think any of this would change. Quigley would mooch despondently around the ruined headquarters, decode the Verbal Fridge Dialogue slower than Klaus if at all, and quite likely be taken out of play somehow or other.
TGG: Remind me, Jean Lucio - is it your contention that, after Klaus's discovery that the sugar bowl would have ended up in Gorgonian Grotto, Widdershins sent out a Volunteer Factual Dispatch to that effect, and somebody beat him to it? That's possible, if somewhat confused; the major difference here, though, is that without Klaus, it would take Widdershins and Fiona longer to decipher the bowl's location if at all. That's long enough to be captured by Olaf elsewhere in the ocean, or otherwise to get way off target. If the sugar bowl was traced independently, they effectively become an irrelevance; if it wasn't, and we suggest that they do trace its location and go after it, then Fiona is sent into Gorgonian Grotto, still fails to find it - still returns to a vanished Widdershins? We can't say if his behaviour would have changed without the Baudelaires around, and in general at this point there are too many variables to say exactly how this is going to play out. It's even possible that we'd still get the scenario with a helmetful of Medusoid Mycelium kicking around, Fiona as a brief member of Olaf's troupe, then her and Fernald defecting, etc. We just don't know, but the overall most likely outcome is that she and the Medusoid Mycelium are out of play - and quite possibly the sugar bowl as well.
TPP: Kit has no Baudelaires to send to Hotel Denouement. She also quite likely hasn't run into Quigley, though, and equally likely doesn't have the other Quagmires battling eagles and an inexplicable henchman with hooks instead of hands, so it's quite possible she goes to Hotel Denouement herself. Is the sugar bowl in play? Quite possibly not, although there is the possibility of another sugar bowl (under the reasonably convincing multiple bowls theory) or simply a dummy wizarded up as a distraction. If there's no sugar bowl, there's no plan surrounding its delivery for the Baudelaires to get involved in, which means Dewey probably doesn't come out into the open and get killed, and Olaf doesn't get captured. In a sense, this is trivial, though, because the major play still goes ahead: The trial, as stage-managed by the sinister duo and as completely unanticipated by either Kit or Dewey. Under these circumstances, V.F.D.'s triumph is impossible, and in my opinion there's still every chance that the sinister duo give Olaf free rein at this point, and that he decides to burn down the hotel and murder everyone anyway. The only difference is that he has no need to go up to the rooftop for the Medusoid Mycelium, so he disguises himself, walks out the door past the authorities, and vanishes into the ether. Either way, there can be no real doubt that some form of disaster still plays out at the Hotel Denouement, and perhaps with even fewer survivors.
The End: Well, nobody ever arrives on the island, that's for sure, so events play out on their own. What you forget, Jean Lucio, is that several of the islanders planned a mutiny anyway, and indeed this actually went ahead regardless, with Olaf and the ultimate release of the Medusoid Mycelium merely interrupting matters. So the schism on the island happens anyway, and no matter which side wins, it's quite likely that some people get hurt and are forced away from the island on the outrigger.
...In conclusion, events would have been different without the Baudelaires, certainly; and might have played out in a number of ways. But the contention that things would have been fine if the Baudelaires had only been out of the picture seems unfounded so long as Olaf is still in it. The man is corrosive - even if the combination of him and the Baudelaires is particularly destructive. Now, if the Baudelaires had stayed home in TBB and died with their parents? Then things might have been a little more settled.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on May 6, 2020 3:53:32 GMT -5
Nice answer Dante. About TPP, I still can't believe that the judges had not been discovered by VFD. The fact that the trial takes place at the hotel seems to me to be a trap for them. A big problem with the plan was that the trial happened earlier, and it happened because of Dewey's death, and it happened because SB was found earlier, and it happened because of Klaus, and Klaus was there because they decided that it was important to go to the mountains, and they thought it was important because they read confidential information after stealing Hall's key. And they did it because they thought they could be detectives even without training. If they just kept running away in THH, they could finally find a safe place. With their skills, they managed to disguise themselves, find a job, raise Sunny as a responsible adult.
I would say that the Baudelaires' greatest moral failure was presumption. They were skilled, it is true. But they believed that they could achieve incredible feats without consequences even without proper training. I would say that there is a big difference between Lemony Snicket as a child and the Baudelaires. Lemony was a bit arrogant, but that arrogance was well founded: he was trained and very intelligent, even surpassing their tutors. But the Baudelaires received partial training at home not very specific. They just weren't ready for everything they set out to do simply because they couldn't think one step ahead. Even Olaf in T.C.C. used the experience and training he received to predict the movements of the Baudelaires without letting them see it. I have wondered several times whether Olaf does not make himself poorly educated in some passages just to pretend to be an easy enemy to be defeated.
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Post by Dante on May 7, 2020 11:43:42 GMT -5
Nice answer Dante. About TPP, I still can't believe that the judges had not been discovered by VFD. The fact that the trial takes place at the hotel seems to me to be a trap for them. A big problem with the plan was that the trial happened earlier, and it happened because of Dewey's death, and it happened because SB was found earlier, and it happened because of Klaus, and Klaus was there because they decided that it was important to go to the mountains, and they thought it was important because they read confidential information after stealing Hall's key. And they did it because they thought they could be detectives even without training. If they just kept running away in THH, they could finally find a safe place. With their skills, they managed to disguise themselves, find a job, raise Sunny as a responsible adult. The idea that V.F.D. had wised to the sinister duo seems incredible to me, because the approach to be taken in that most dangerous of situations would be to circulate this secret as widely as possible. The sinister duo have literally shaped the law around concealing their identities, and no volunteer ever does anything to stop them or even hint that they see something amiss about the High Court. Why would V.F.d. not tell anyone? Kit discusses the sinister duo with the Baudelaires at the start of TPP. Dewey had evidently met Justice Strauss on multiple occasions. Why would neither they nor anyone else disseminate this information? The only answer that follows is that V.F.D. was entirely in the dark about the sinister duo's presence on the High Court. I similarly struggle to conclude how staging the trial at the Hotel Denouement could have gone against the sinister duo, given that they had complete control of the situation, both in their position of authority within the court and in their ability to draw a ring of steel in the form of the authorities around the hotel perimeter. Perhaps before the location of the last safe place passed into the villains' hands; but the sinister duo learnt this themselves in TSS, and by the time of TPP the hotel is heaving with villains. There is neither advantage nor disadvantage to be had there, but the sinister duo walked right in and were hatching their schemes even from TGG, and the trial happening a day earlier or later would not have changed that; indeed, the trial happening a day earlier was a change from their plan, but things still can't be said to have gone V.F.D.'s way! For that matter, we have no information on whose idea it was to hold the trial at the Hotel Denouement - but given that the sinister duo control the High Court, there's every possibility that it was their idea - since it can only have gone ahead with their consent. So they would have found out soon enough about the Hotel Denouement and the trial anyway, and given that they would have to have been informed in advance of what the premise of the trial was, then again, this can not have been any kind of surprise to them. On the subject of the Baudelaires, they never thought they could be detectives without training. They were on the run from Olaf, the law, and the general public, in the one tiny corner of the world they were chased to they had the opportunity to learn something which might help explain the secret hanging over them, and they took that opportunity. That's THH; and as for choosing to go to the mountains, when it came down to it, they didn't have a choice in the matter - Olaf took hold of Sunny and coerced Violet and Klaus into joining him. From TCC onwards, certainly, the Baudelaires are swept along by events and very rarely have even the opportunity to take action on their own account. When do the Baudelaires presume any of this? They are told that they are capable, repeatedly, by experienced volunteers like Widdershins and Kit who specifically ask the Baudelaires to do what they do, and do not offer an alternative. If you want to blame someone for presumption, blame Widdershins, blame Kit, who place the Baudelaires in these situations and abandon them. You seem to be attributing to the Baudelaires wild ambitions which they never express. They are only drawn into other people's ambitions. When the Baudelaires aren't doing a job somebody else has given them, they are only running; either away from Olaf and the authorities, or to another authority who can tell them what to do! |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on May 7, 2020 12:53:17 GMT -5
Excuse me ... I know all of that. But I was doing nothing, and without ideas and needed to write something. Your answers were impeccable.
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