Ernest is a double agent

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I recently touched on this subject, and I hope to clarify the reasons why I think so. I made a claim that there is evidence that Ernest is a double agent. My statement was misunderstood on my part, and that it would have been better for me to have written "there is no textual record that Ernest explicitly committed some evil act". So, this text is to show what the evidence I was referring at that moment

But first, I want to clarify what I mean by saying that Ernest is a double agent. I am stating one of the following possibilities:

1 - Ernest can support the incendiary side of the schism in his heart, but he is trying to gain confidence from the fire-extinguishing side, and for this reason he avoids telling the information incipiently in haste. In this case, he does not yet know that his true intentions have already been discovered. The fire-extinguishing side doesn't want Ernest to know that his true intentions have already been discovered, as this is the smartest way to deal with double agents: you give him false information so he can pass that information on to the enemy side .

2 - Ernest can support the fire-extinguishing side at heart, and be trying to gain the confidence of the incendiary side. In this case, the fire-extinguishing side have accused to everyone that Ernest is an arsonist, but evidently Enerst does not pass on some crucial information to the arsonist side.

3 - The Denouement brothers formed their own faction and both Ernest and Frank are double agents, in the sense that they work to officially go to the opposite sides of the Schism, but at heart they support the ideas of the very faction they created. (This is the idea I like best.)

The evidence that there is the idea of ​​double agents being used in some way in this family is easily seen, and I will point them out now:

1 - Ernest and Frank want to be confused with each other. - Of course, Daniel Handler wants us to confuse each other in TPP, and be confused until we find out that Dewey exists, and still be confused. But, there must be some explanation within the story for Ernest and Frank's behavior. They do not intoduce themselves by name at any time. This seems to indicate that they are working together in some way towards a common goal: to deceive people. The reasons for this may have to do with one of the three possibilities that I have already mentioned.

2 - Both hid the existence of a third twin for the incendiary side of the schism. Again, Ernest may have hidden this because he wanted to gain confidence on the fire extinguishing side, or because he did not want to betray the fire extinguishing side. Or again (which I prefer to believe) because Dewey's existence was an important secret for the Brother D faction.

3 - Both hid the existence of the underwater library on the incendiary side. Again, Ernest may have hidden this because he wanted to gain confidence on the fire extinguishing side, or because he did not want to betray the fire extinguishing side. Or even (which I prefer to believe) because the existence of the underwater library was an important secret for the D bros. faction.

4 - Dewey seems to include Kit as his specific ally, while Kit refuses to pass on information about Dewey's existence to the Baudelaires. This appears to be evidence that Dewey and Kit were part of a faction, and that keeping the secret about Dewey's existence was important to that faction. I remember an interview in which Daniel Handler referred to VFD at the time of the main events of ASOUE as being a fragmented organization. The word "fragmented" suggests something divided into multiple pieces. I think these little pieces are the factions formed in VFD. We see evidence that there was a faction formation in Gregor A's day, showing that faction formation went through Daniel Handler's mind as he wrote TGG. This idea could have been very vivid in his mind when he wrote TPP, which was soon after, and in TE, where we explicitly see a schism happening on the island. Kit could be part of the same faction as the three brothers D. (Maybe she didn't even know that Ernest was also a member of the same faction, and she really believed that he was a member of the incendiary side of the great schism, but Kit's attitude is evidence of there was a faction involving the D brothers). Considering the possibility of the existence of the D bros faction, we can still infer the possibility that Ernest was an intimate arsonist, but he tried to gain the confidence of his brothers who had formed the D faction, without knowing that his true intentions had already been discovered, in which case Ernest did not pass any information to the incendiary side of the great schism to avoid being accused of treason by his brothers.

In other words, although I can't get canonical evidence of what Ernest's true intentions were, I point to what I said above as canonical evidence that he was in one way or another a double agent.

[Marlowe]

Jun 29, 2020 18:53:40 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

I remember an interview in which Daniel Handler referred to VFD at the time of the main events of ASOUE as being a fragmented organization. The word "fragmented" suggests something divided into multiple pieces. I think these little pieces are the factions formed in VFD. We see evidence that there was a faction formation in Gregor A's day, showing that faction formation went through Daniel Handler's mind as he wrote TGG. 

Do you recall which interview this was?

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

www.dumbofeather.com/conversations/daniel-handler-embraces-complexity/

Befuddlement! [Laughs] is Lemony Snicket like a pal or a brother?



We don’t sit around talking to each other. I mean, when I speak to children I always say that Lemony Snicket can’t be there. That I’m there instead. And that to me always felt true. Because it’s true he can’t be there. The man who is obsessed with Beatrice and has a connection to the Baudelaire orphans, has been wandering around a lonely landscape with this secret organisation, fragmented, can’t be there. I can be there. And people talk about it being a pseudonym and I would say, “It doesn’t feel like a pseudonym to me because it’s a narrator.” I’m publishing the books under the name of the narrator. That just seems like an interesting thing to do to me. It wasn’t, “No one better know that I wrote these.” That is another one of these soft places I guess. I see people confused, thinking, What are you doing? [Laughs]. And I think, I don’t know. Why would you ask me? Certainly in some ways this seems unfashionable. The most praised serious literature tends to be socially realistic. 

[Marlowe]

Judging by the context, I'm pretty sure he's talking more about Lemony himself there rather than VFD.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Maybe yes, maybe not. In any case, the example of what happened during the events involving Gregor A and the fungus MM indicates that the fire-extinguishing side went through minor schisms.
The way Kit talks about schisms indicates in TE it indicates that schisms occur frequently, and even Olaf said he could talk about schisms (in the plural) with the children if they let him go. We also see the result of this fragmented organization in the case of Olvia T. She was so confused and was left out by the central organization. She became a wandering agent, not knowing what to do, in a constant disguise without receiving new instructions and not knowing who to trust. Ish himself decided to form a type of faction in his own mold on the island. He wanted a peaceful world after all. (And if we include ATWQ, Lemony decided to create a VFD in his own mold).

[Dante]

Interesting breakdown, Jean Lucio, and far from unreasonable. Ernest's status as a villain is deeply dubious, for, as you say, he doesn't appear to commit any evil acts on-screen and it's clear he withheld vital information from what you call the incendiary side of the schism (which is a catchy name, though I won't adopt it myself). It's possible to conceive of a situation where Ernest is only a recent convert to villainy; possible even to speculate that this might have been because he discovered that the Hotel Denouement's status as the last safe place and all its secrets had been hidden even from him. But that would be fanfiction, however interesting; though really, any explanation of Ernest's behaviour has to be fanfiction. It does seem logically inevitable that he must have been some kind of double agent, though you could just about contrive an argument against if you really wanted to; but it has to be an argument of possibilities rather than textual proof. Frank and Ernest are intriguing but surprisingly irrelevant as characters.

A few notes:

Jun 29, 2020 18:53:40 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

3 - The Denouement brothers formed their own faction and both Ernest and Frank are double agents, in the sense that they work to officially go to the opposite sides of the Schism, but at heart they support the ideas of the very faction they created. (This is the idea I like best.)

If I'm perfectly honest, I think you are more committed to the idea of factions than is really evidenced in canon. I won't say it's impossible or even unreasonable, but my expectations of a faction are a bit different to what I think you will accept.

1 - Ernest and Frank want to be confused with each other. - Of course, Daniel Handler wants us to confuse each other in TPP, and be confused until we find out that Dewey exists, and still be confused. But, there must be some explanation within the story for Ernest and Frank's behavior. They do not intoduce themselves by name at any time. This seems to indicate that they are working together in some way towards a common goal: to deceive people. The reasons for this may have to do with one of the three possibilities that I have already mentioned.

This doesn't seem to be mysterious on a surface reading of the text, however. They each want to be mistaken as the other in the hopes of gleaning confidential secrets from the other side of the schism and to interfere in their plans.

2 - Both hid the existence of a third twin for the incendiary side of the schism. Again, Ernest may have hidden this because he wanted to gain confidence on the fire extinguishing side, or because he did not want to betray the fire extinguishing side. Or again (which I prefer to believe) because Dewey's existence was an important secret for the Brother D faction.

It's just about believable that Dewey's continued existence might have been hidden from Ernest - believable, I say, rather than provable. You might wish to suggest that he and a great many other people were led to believe that Dewey had died the night their home burned down, with Dewey playing the role of Frank on all subsequent public occasions. (Well, this has to be true anyway, but that's not to say that Ernest believes it.) As it happens, though, my personal assumption across the years was similar to yours - that the Denouements, whilst nominally members of one or the other sides of the schism, are loyal to each other above all and will never take steps to endanger each other, no matter who else they may work against.

3 - Both hid the existence of the underwater library on the incendiary side. Again, Ernest may have hidden this because he wanted to gain confidence on the fire extinguishing side, or because he did not want to betray the fire extinguishing side. Or even (which I prefer to believe) because the existence of the underwater library was an important secret for the D bros. faction.

It's just about conceivable that the underwater catalogue may have been constructed without Ernest's knowledge, though again, that's a real reach. I imagine a tunnel would have to be dug from a separate location, the whole thing dug out beneath the hotel without any contact with the hotel itself and the world above, and then at last the secret passageway installed and the original dig tunnel collapsed to seal the whole thing off. Absurd, of course, and probably unnecessary or at the very least a terrible idea, but since I regard this very much as a discussion of possibilities rather than proof, I feel it's worth mentioning. My standard for a possibility that's worth mentioning is basically, "would it make an interesting fanfic?"

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Yes, it would be an interesting fanfic. I think that every good Fanfic expands what is canonical instead of contradicting what is canonical. I forgot to mention that the three seem to be working together to make Dewey's plan work in order to trick Count Olaf about the SB. The plan was divided into three parts, and all were important. The adhesive paper would only make sense if one of the crows was hit by a projectile. Ernest knew very well what the hotel's inclined position was like, so he wouldn't be fooled into believing that the SB would fall into the laundry funnel. And Dewey locked the laundry. It seems reasonable to believe that the three worked together for a common plan. Anyway, I didn't like the way the show showed Ernest, committing murder.

[Uncle Algernon]

Jul 3, 2020 15:05:46 GMT -5 Dante said:

It's just about conceivable that the underwater catalogue may have been constructed without Ernest's knowledge, though again, that's a real reach. I imagine a tunnel would have to be dug from a separate location, the whole thing dug out beneath the hotel without any contact with the hotel itself and the world above, and then at last the secret passageway installed and the original dig tunnel collapsed to seal the whole thing off. Absurd, of course, and probably unnecessary or at the very least a terrible idea, but since I regard this very much as a discussion of possibilities rather than proof, I feel it's worth mentioning. My standard for a possibility that's worth mentioning is basically, "would it make an interesting fanfic?"

If you're in the market for possibilities which open up interesting fanfic ideas — could the underwater chamber be as old as the hotel itself, and perhaps even predate its conversion into a library? 

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I imagine the hotel and the library were being built together. What we are sure of is that the hotel was designed in an inclined manner according to the image that the library generated on the surface of the lake. In other words, the hotel hides the library's existence. If the Library existed without the hotel, it would no longer be a secret library. It is hypothetically possible that the hotel was designed with the creation of a future submerged library in mind. But in both cases I find it difficult to hide something like that from one of the managers. It is possible that both the hotel and the library have existed since before they were born, and they inherited the hotel. But I like to think that the project was Dewey's. The need to hide a library under the water seems to be a device against arsonists, which seems to make sense at the time after the Great Schism.

[Uncle Algernon]

I was actually pondering the possibility of the underground construction predating the hotel.

[FileneNGottlin]

The strange thing is that the catalogue doesn't seem to be visible from the edge of the pond, even without the hotel covering it. Lemony states in TPP that, as of the book being written, the pond reflects nothing. So either the catalogue has also been destroyed at some point, or the reflection was never necessary to begin with.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

The pond does not reflect anything because the hotel was destroyed (According to my theory, the hotel was rebuilt during the years that passed between the publication of TBB and TSS. In addition, my theory indicates that this hotel was destroyed again during writing of TPP). In any case, the hotel cast a reflection on the water, and the secret library was hidden by the hotel's reflection. Without the hotel, the pond reflects nothing. The library is exposed during the final part of TPP writing, although at that time the means of entering this library was still a secret.

[FileneNGottlin]

I should clarify what I meant there. If the hotel is a decoy that’s meant to be burnt down, then its inevitable absence would put the catalog in jeopardy. The reflection of nothing suggests that there’s a long period of time where the catalog is visible. Even if VFD’s enemies can’t enter it, they would still know it was there, defeating the purpose of the hotel cover.

[Dante]

Jul 4, 2020 7:21:44 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

Yes, it would be an interesting fanfic. I think that every good Fanfic expands what is canonical instead of contradicting what is canonical. I forgot to mention that the three seem to be working together to make Dewey's plan work in order to trick Count Olaf about the SB. The plan was divided into three parts, and all were important. The adhesive paper would only make sense if one of the crows was hit by a projectile. Ernest knew very well what the hotel's inclined position was like, so he wouldn't be fooled into believing that the SB would fall into the laundry funnel. And Dewey locked the laundry. It seems reasonable to believe that the three worked together for a common plan. Anyway, I didn't like the way the show showed Ernest, committing murder.

Of course, one possibility in this regard is that Ernest is as poor a student of the force of gravity as is Olaf himself; but it's a reasonable objection.

Jul 4, 2020 12:33:44 GMT -5 Uncle Algernon said:

If you're in the market for possibilities which open up interesting fanfic ideas — could the underwater chamber be as old as the hotel itself, and perhaps even predate its conversion into a library? 

It makes it harder, but you could probably believe that if you really wanted. It would be more difficult to suppress knowledge of the secret chamber's existence, I would imagine, if it was older; and not least as this implies that the Hotel Denouement was built where it was specifically to guard the catalogue, rather than vice-versa. You'd need to do a lot of weighing up to justify this one; was the pond already there? And, for that matter - what exactly is the orientation of false hotel? There has been considerable discussion over the years as to whether it is built on its back, as it were, facing up from the very bottom of the pool; or whether it is an inversion of the hotel existing directly beneath it and occupying instead a wall of the pond.

Jul 6, 2020 11:26:27 GMT -5 FileneNGottlin said:

I should clarify what I meant there. If the hotel is a decoy that’s meant to be burnt down, then its inevitable absence would put the catalog in jeopardy. The reflection of nothing suggests that there’s a long period of time where the catalog is visible. Even if VFD’s enemies can’t enter it, they would still know it was there, defeating the purpose of the hotel cover.

I understand your point. The question is whether the catalogue is really visible beneath the water and needs to be disguised as the reflection of a building above the water. Either the hotel is a decoy, in which case its destruction reveals the location of the catalogue and it should subsequently have been attacked and destroyed itself; or the catalogue remains hidden, in which case the hotel is not a decoy. Well, it doesn't really need to be just a decoy in terms of visibility; the hotel can explain why a number of volunteers might be bringing their research to this one lonely site. If there were seemingly nothing there, it would be obvious that some hidden subterranean location existed.

...For what it's worth, I don't think discussion of the physical realities and plausibilities of the reflection should play too grand a role in this argument. The author's grasp of physics and spatial relations has been shown to be distinctly shaky across a number of different books.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I believe that even the arsonists faced several difficulties after the destruction of Hotel D. The first is that the library is underwater, making it more difficult for the fire to propagate under water. Second, they were dead, which generally makes it difficult to take actions of any kind. ( Most of the surrounding villains died in the Hotel D fire itself.) Third, more distant allies would need to pass by in order to see that there is a library under the water. But if there is no hotel, the number of casual visitors decreases greatly.