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Post by R. on Dec 13, 2020 2:22:57 GMT -5
After looking through Optimism is my Phil-osophy’s theories about the in-universe publication of ASOUE, I think I might have found something. The answer is simple: there were several editions published at different times. The first edition(s) were published while the events of the series happened, leading to the letters to Kit and the fears of Count Olaf still being alive (these things were left in in the later edition we have in our world), and this makes it possible that Ms K was indeed Kit. Later editions were published many years later, and were more accurate and mentioned the Baudelaires’ lives many years into the future, but still contained the letters to Kit etc. for historical context. |
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Post by Dante on Dec 13, 2020 4:55:25 GMT -5
This is the rough conclusion that a number of us have come to over the years. It's far from perfect, but it resolves the obvious contradictions while leaving everything still to mean what it was intended to.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 13, 2020 10:33:30 GMT -5
I will never agree with that !!!Not!! Not even!! Under no circumstances !! I will never agree with that! Canonically the only republication of an ASOUE book was TBB. This is the theory that made me have a schism with Snicket Sleuth. We spent hours talking. He defends this theory with nails and teeth while I defend the theory of the Great Hiatus with nails and teeth. Evidence points out that Daniel Handler changed his mind while he was writing, and that is the reason for many of the contradictions. But I am absolutely sure that Daniel Handler never thought of several editions of all his books being published in his universe. This fictional publishing mechanism never crossed his mind. (Only in TBB and that was explicit, with two editions of the same book in our universe as well). The secret letter in TSS has elements that make it evident that Daniel Handler had in mind what he always had in mind about when Lemony Snicket was writing and publishing the books: Lemony was about to revisit where the VFD base was. he wrote, he already knew what had happened. Because years had passed since the events he was recording. It's that simple. After that Daniel Handler decided to kill Kit, causing a contradiction. But at no time did he imply that the mechanism involved was to republish several books in the universe of Lemony Snicket. In any case, what Daniel Handler had in mind was that Lemony Snicket tried to publish the books in various ways for some time before actually publishing. Oh, I could spend hours writing all the evidence, and maybe I’ll do it little by little. But I can assure you that those who support the idea of various publications are reading too hastily and have missed the essence of Lemony Snicket's narration. I congratulate the Netflix show for perfectly capturing the essence of it. catastrophist thank you very much for your work in this regard. (I would be very grateful if you could write something about it). You wrote it in a way that really conveyed the spirit of Lemony Snicket's narration, and the fact that he had to research for many years, going to the places where the events took place in order to write something worthy of trust. He was not an eyewitness to most of the major events described in ASOUE. Lemony Snicket is a narrator / researcher. This is the essence of the character in ASOUE. He is not a narrator / observer.
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Post by Hermes on Dec 13, 2020 13:50:59 GMT -5
Jean: I'm sure Handler never intended that*, but given we agree that Handler's intentions are inconsistent, the question is what story we can tell to make sense of what we read. And the 'revised version' hypothesis seems the best way of doing that. As I've mentioned before, there is a precedent for this in The Basic Eight, where we get a combination of Flan's diary written during the events, and her later reflections on the matter when in prison, but they aren't clearly separated.
*Except possibly in TUA. The seeming inconsistencies in TCC, TSS and TGG can be explained through a change of plan, but those in TUA look deliberate; the work is meant to be unreliable, and to include temporal paradoxes, as signaled by the two pictures marked 'could not possibly have been at same time'. We certainly seem there to see the first two books, at least, on the shelves while the unfortunate events are still happening, despite the many references in the books to the long time which has passed since the events; I think we are actually meant to look at it and say 'that's impossible!'. But again, the idea of different editions can be used to make sense of it, in this case without any hypothesis about bits of the earlier version being retained. (I'm now wondering whether some readings of ASOUE which overstate how mysterious it all is derive from attempts to read TUA on the assumption that all the events are happening at the same time.)
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Post by R. on Dec 13, 2020 14:33:29 GMT -5
Optimism is my Phil-osophy, no offence intended. I didn’t know that that theory got on your nerves so much, I just thought it explained a lot..
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 13, 2020 14:58:14 GMT -5
So we got to the question: "What is the best way to assemble the ASOUE chronology puzzle incorrectly?" The answer to that question will of course depend on your personal taste. Imagine a real puzzle, which has no solution, because some pieces do not fit (due to manufacturing error). However, it is possible to mount (in the wrong way) in a few different ways, and surprisingly the images formed are slightly different from each other. One of the images is completely different from the image promised on the cover. The other image formed is different, but not so much. With that in mind, let us analyze ASOUE's Background story involving Lemony Snicket himself. This background story is only a detail in the 13 books by ASOUE, but in LSTUA and TBL, this is the main story. If we want to talk about "what is the best wrong picture in a puzzle with some pieces that do not fit the background story of ASOUE" we need to understand that the model of what this puzzle should look like is in Daniel Handler's explicit intentions in LSTUA and TBL. I'm sure I wasn't clear enough, but what I mean, in a nutshell is: when you use the artifice of various publications from ASOUE's main books in Lemony's universe, you go against what was proposed by Daniel Handler at LSTUA. As you said, LSTUA was designed to be confusing and complicated, like a Gordian knot. The fun in that book is that you try to establish an order for events. When you use the resource of various publications, you are cutting the Gordian knot with a sword. Is that efficient? Yes. But is this fun? No. LSTUA needs to be fun. I find it more interesting that you assemble the puzzle as close as possible to the model, and then I can identify the piece that came with a factory defect and say: "This piece here does not fit, because it is defective". Of course, you can still take the piece and try to force it violently (after all, you bought the puzzle, and you can do whatever you want with it). All the other pieces will be a little loose with this, but at least you did it intentionally. But you ride in a totally different way ... This is cheating. Just think about the consequences ... If Lemony published the books at the time of events, how did he get the information? Was he chasing the children without interfering? That makes Lemony an indifferent stalker ... And how did he know about their thoughts? Were there cameras everywhere? Look ... Everything is already going too far ... And how did people think Lemony was dead if he was publishing books? Of course, you can find justifications for all of this ... But they are bad justifications, and they make Lemony a bad person, probably a liar. I've been on the side that believed Lemony was a narrator who lies on purpose. Most of the people on this side use arguments that are based on the idea that Lemony published ASOUE books during the narrated events. My arguments have always been based on chronology ... Although the chronology is confusing, there is something important about it that I don't think can be discarded without significant losses for the fun at LSTUA. I can cite as an example the Masked Ball in which Lemony was arrested. As Hermes said: you look at things and they seem to make no sense. But that was what DH wanted ... But he also wanted it to make some sense to more attentive people. When did the Ball happen? How could Beatrice be there? Did Lemony spend years abroad after this ball? These are important questions that have been stimulated in our minds because DH wanted us to think about that. On the other hand, Miss K the question was another. "Who is Miss K?" and the answer should be answered with Kit, in a later book. But he later decided to kill Kit. So I can say, "This is a defective piece of the puzzle. But we can try to solve it hard, just for fun." Optimism is my Phil-osophy , no offence intended. I didn’t know that that theory got on your nerves so much, I just thought it explained a lot.. No, I didn't take offense at you! Please continue to speak your point of view. I am not the owner of the truth. |
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Post by Dante on Dec 13, 2020 16:18:59 GMT -5
Those are wonderful metaphors, Jean Lucio. It's a shame that I disagree with them. Presenting ASoUE as something like a puzzle which we received from the factory with the odd piece here and there defective - well, that implies that there was an intended correct version, a vision in which everything fitted together perfectly, and a few discrepancies just snuck in somewhere in the production process. In some areas, I think that's correct (though whose image is closer to the image printed on the box I think is where our opinions diverge). However, in others... I think it would be more accurate to say that the factory simply cut whatever pieces they wanted, and dropped them all into the box without ever trying to fit them together, like a bucket of random LEGO bricks to be assembled however you want. In those cases, I reject the existence of the image printed on the box.
Another way of putting it would be to say that the author designed us a maze. However, they didn't check their answers; didn't check to see that there was a correct way of reaching the centre, indeed never provided a centre, an exit, any kind of objective. Daedalus thought it was more interesting that we should get lost. And as deeper and deeper in we went, he began even to move the walls and rearrange the design...
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Post by Hermes on Dec 13, 2020 17:01:56 GMT -5
Just think about the consequences ... If Lemony published the books at the time of events, how did he get the information? Was he chasing the children without interfering? That makes Lemony an indifferent stalker But do we not have these puzzles anyway? Captain Widdershins (or Fiona?) tells us that volunteers were always tracking them, but did not intervene because 'their troubles were so enormous'. Jacques, on the other hand, as reported by Quigley, implies that they are hard to find (rather contradicting the previous point). We don't have to suppose that L actually caught up with them; if he was just one step behind, he was never in a position to rescue them. And in any case, during the first two books, the only ones we know were written during the unfortunate events, they were with their legal guardians, which would have made rescue difficult. Again, is that not a puzzle whenever the books were written? (And do the extracts included in TUA describe their thoughts, anyway?) Who says they thought he was dead? I'm not suggesting all the events of TUA happened during ASOUE; I agree with you that Lemony's false death, chronicled in chapter 1, happened many years later. When people, extrapolating from TUA, began to theorise that all Lemony's research happened during the unfortunate events, including the faalse death and all the background adventures described in the series, then they created an over-complex and insoluble mystery. Some of them also tried to fit the building committee meeting, Lemony's review of Olaf's play, etc., into the timeline of ASOUE, making it even more insoluble. But that doesn't mean none of it is. I think that certain parts of TUA clearly are set within the timeline of ASOUE - the letters in the 'Mr Poe' chapter, the cow's narrative of his search for the reptiles, the letter from Brett (which shows Lemony was definitely researching the events as they happened), and the letter to Kit in ch. 12, written at a time when 'can we help the Baudelaires?' was a meaningful question, and showing that Kit was aware of their plight. That is the picture on the cover; not everything fits it, but it's the things that don't fit it which are anomalies which need to be explained. |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 13, 2020 22:09:02 GMT -5
Those are wonderful metaphors, Jean Lucio. It's a shame that I disagree with them. Presenting ASoUE as something like a puzzle which we received from the factory with the odd piece here and there defective - well, that implies that there was an intended correct version, a vision in which everything fitted together perfectly, and a few discrepancies just snuck in somewhere in the production process. In some areas, I think that's correct (though whose image is closer to the image printed on the box I think is where our opinions diverge). However, in others... I think it would be more accurate to say that the factory simply cut whatever pieces they wanted, and dropped them all into the box without ever trying to fit them together, like a bucket of random LEGO bricks to be assembled however you want. In those cases, I reject the existence of the image printed on the box. Another way of putting it would be to say that the author designed us a maze. However, they didn't check their answers; didn't check to see that there was a correct way of reaching the centre, indeed never provided a centre, an exit, any kind of objective. Daedalus thought it was more interesting that we should get lost. And as deeper and deeper in we went, he began even to move the walls and rearrange the design... I understand what you mean, and I think you understand what I mean. My metaphor is not applying to issues obviously left open in ASOUE, such as whether the Baudelaires survived or not. I apply my metaphor specifically to the story told in a fragmented way about the story within the story. When Lemony narrates about the Masked Ball, for example, that in ASOUE's 13 books is just a detail. But in LSTUA this is an important issue, as is Lemony's flight abroad. The title of the book refers to a biography, and although it is obviously a joke, it is still an exciting challenge. Something like the author saying: "Can you put together a story consistent with this content?" In addition to this question, I can still hear Daniel Handler saying very softly "well, I can". |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 13, 2020 22:38:14 GMT -5
Who says they thought he was dead? I'm not suggesting all the events of TUA happened during ASOUE; I agree with you that Lemony's false death, chronicled in chapter 1, happened many years later. When people, extrapolating from TUA, began to theorise that all Lemony's research happened during the unfortunate events, including the faalse death and all the background adventures described in the series, then they created an over-complex and insoluble mystery. Some of them also tried to fit the building committee meeting, Lemony's review of Olaf's play, etc., into the timeline of ASOUE, making it even more insoluble. But that doesn't mean none of it is. I think that certain parts of TUA clearly are set within the timeline of ASOUE - the letters in the 'Mr Poe' chapter, the cow's narrative of his search for the reptiles, the letter from Brett (which shows Lemony was definitely researching the events as they happened), and the letter to Kit in ch. 12, written at a time when 'can we help the Baudelaires?' was a meaningful question, and showing that Kit was aware of their plight. That is the picture on the cover; not everything fits it, but it's the things that don't fit it which are anomalies which need to be explained. I think that fundamentally me, you and Dante are all saying the same thing. I am happy with that. The only detail that I could disagree with Hermes, would be the event involving the man disguised as a cow. I can see a whole coherent story involving all this, and avoiding the publication of several books in the universe of asoue. Let’s let go of the need for Kit to die, I think we can agree that Daniel Handler thought of killing Kit only after he published LSTUA, TSS, etc. Kit's death is the most defective piece in our puzzle. Then, for a moment consider that Kit did not die, because in the universe in which LSTUA is set, Kit did not die. Then, in that universe, Lemony tried to publish the Baudelaires' story for several years and failed. (As shown in Lemony's letter to cheesemakers talking about zombies in the snow and Sally Sebald's letter to Lemony. Lemony finally manages to publish some ASOUE books. After that, he is arrested and flees abroad, as indicated in the first chapter of LSTUA (being presumed dead after his escape from prison). Where was he captured? At the masked ball. The ball took place after the publication of TRR, because the man who disguised himself as a cow found information in TRR. happened after the publication of TRR, which was after a few years of the main events of ASOUE having happened. The only thing that seems to deny this is the fact that Beatrice was at that party, so instead of and denying the whole chronological conclusion of the facts that I have described, it is better to try to explain how it is possible that Beatrice was at that party, since Beatrice died at the time of the main events described in ASOUE. The place to create theories is here, something precarious specifically placed with the objective of creating theories. I used to explain with "she didn't really die." But today I explain with "that person was an imposter". The real explanation doesn't matter that much. |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 13, 2020 22:41:46 GMT -5
So we got to the question: "What is the best way to assemble the ASOUE chronology puzzle incorrectly?" The answer to that question will of course depend on your personal taste. Imagine a real puzzle, which has no solution, because some pieces do not fit (due to manufacturing error). However, it is possible to mount (in the wrong way) in a few different ways, and surprisingly the images formed are slightly different from each other. One of the images is completely different from the image promised on the cover. The other image formed is different, but not so much. With that in mind, let us analyze ASOUE's Background story involving Lemony Snicket himself. This background story is only a detail in the 13 books by ASOUE, but in LSTUA and TBL, this is the main story. If we want to talk about "what is the best wrong picture in a puzzle with some pieces that do not fit the background story of ASOUE" we need to understand that the model of what this puzzle should look like is in Daniel Handler's explicit intentions in LSTUA and TBL. I'm sure I wasn't clear enough, but what I mean, in a nutshell is: when you use the artifice of various publications from ASOUE's main books in Lemony's universe, you go against what was proposed by Daniel Handler at LSTUA. As you said, LSTUA was designed to be confusing and complicated, like a Gordian knot. The fun in that book is that you try to establish an order for events. When you use the resource of various publications, you are cutting the Gordian knot with a sword. Is that efficient? Yes. But is this fun? No. LSTUA needs to be fun. I find it more interesting that you assemble the puzzle as close as possible to the model, and then I can identify the piece that came with a factory defect and say: "This piece here does not fit, because it is defective". Of course, you can still take the piece and try to force it violently (after all, you bought the puzzle, and you can do whatever you want with it). All the other pieces will be a little loose with this, but at least you did it intentionally. But you ride in a totally different way ... This is cheating. Just think about the consequences ... If Lemony published the books at the time of events, how did he get the information? Was he chasing the children without interfering? That makes Lemony an indifferent stalker ... And how did he know about their thoughts? Were there cameras everywhere? Look ... Everything is already going too far ... And how did people think Lemony was dead if he was publishing books? Of course, you can find justifications for all of this ... But they are bad justifications, and they make Lemony a bad person, probably a liar. I've been on the side that believed Lemony was a narrator who lies on purpose. Most of the people on this side use arguments that are based on the idea that Lemony published ASOUE books during the narrated events. My arguments have always been based on chronology ... Although the chronology is confusing, there is something important about it that I don't think can be discarded without significant losses for the fun at LSTUA. I can cite as an example the Masked Ball in which Lemony was arrested. As Hermes said: you look at things and they seem to make no sense. But that was what DH wanted ... But he also wanted it to make some sense to more attentive people. When did the Ball happen? How could Beatrice be there? Did Lemony spend years abroad after this ball? These are important questions that have been stimulated in our minds because DH wanted us to think about that. On the other hand, Miss K the question was another. "Who is Miss K?" and the answer should be answered with Kit, in a later book. But he later decided to kill Kit. So I can say, "This is a defective piece of the puzzle. But we can try to solve it hard, just for fun." Optimism is my Phil-osophy , no offence intended. I didn’t know that that theory got on your nerves so much, I just thought it explained a lot.. No, I didn't take offense at you! Please continue to speak your point of view. I am not the owner of the truth. Dec 13, 2020 19:01:56 GMT -3 Hermes said: Who says they thought he was dead? I'm not suggesting all the events of TUA happened during ASOUE; I agree with you that Lemony's false death, chronicled in chapter 1, happened many years later. When people, extrapolating from TUA, began to theorise that all Lemony's research happened during the unfortunate events, including the faalse death and all the background adventures described in the series, then they created an over-complex and insoluble mystery. Some of them also tried to fit the building committee meeting, Lemony's review of Olaf's play, etc., into the timeline of ASOUE, making it even more insoluble. But that doesn't mean none of it is. I think that certain parts of TUA clearly are set within the timeline of ASOUE - the letters in the 'Mr Poe' chapter, the cow's narrative of his search for the reptiles, the letter from Brett (which shows Lemony was definitely researching the events as they happened), and the letter to Kit in ch. 12, written at a time when 'can we help the Baudelaires?' was a meaningful question, and showing that Kit was aware of their plight. That is the picture on the cover; not everything fits it, but it's the things that don't fit it which are anomalies which need to be explained. I think that fundamentally me, you and Dante are all saying the same thing. I am happy with that. The only detail that I could disagree with Hermes, would be the event involving the man disguised as a cow. I can see a whole coherent story involving all this, and avoiding the publication of several books in the universe of asoue. Let’s let go of the need for Kit to die, I think we can agree that Daniel Handler thought of killing Kit only after he published LSTUA, TSS, etc. Kit's death is the most defective piece in our puzzle. Then, for a moment consider that Kit did not die, because in the universe in which LSTUA is set, Kit did not die. Then, in that universe, Lemony tried to publish the Baudelaires' story for several years and failed. (As shown in Lemony's letter to cheesemakers talking about zombies in the snow and Sally Sebald's letter to Lemony. Lemony finally manages to publish some ASOUE books. After that, he is arrested and flees abroad, as indicated in the first chapter of LSTUA (being presumed dead after his escape from prison). Where was he captured? At the masked ball. The ball took place after the publication of TRR, because the man who disguised himself as a cow found information in TRR. happened after the publication of TRR, which was after a few years of the main events of ASOUE having happened. The only thing that seems to deny this is the fact that Beatrice was at that party, so instead of and denying the whole chronological conclusion of the facts that I have described, it is better to try to explain how it is possible that Beatrice was at that party, since Beatrice died at the time of the main events described in ASOUE. The place to create theories is here, something precarious specifically placed with the objective of creating theories. I used to explain with "she didn't really die." But today I explain with "that person was an imposter". The real explanation doesn't matter that much. |
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Post by Hermes on Dec 14, 2020 18:14:45 GMT -5
Jean: It seems clear to me that the letters imply that part at least of ASOUE was published while the unfortunate events were still happening. The natural reading is that all three letters were written about the same time, and the other two letters relate directly to events recounted in ASOUE; this is confirmed, as I have argued before, by the evidence of Geraldine's imprisonment of Eleanora, which would have made her reluctant to publish such articles in future. So we can establish the publication of part of the series during the events (at least on the most natural reading), even before we look at the cow episode.
Now as to the cow: he is described as 'one of O's henchmen', implying that Olaf is still alive. You might say that it isn't established within TUA that Olaf is going to die; but we also know that at this point in the story Prufrock Prep was still in operation, and it must have closed not long after the unfortunate events, given that in Nero's letter it's made clear that Mrs Bass is already planning her robbery.
So I am not shaken in my belief that all these events (if they really happened, and are not an unreliable narrative by villains) happened within the timeline of the series.
Oh - and are you suggesting that L was arrested at the ball? He doesn't say 'arrested', only 'captured': and R's letter seems to imply that it was not the police who captured him, since R was trying to prevent the police finding out he was there. Nor am I clear how information found by the cow would lead to his arrest.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 14, 2020 21:20:00 GMT -5
Well, let's go.
I fully agree that part of the LSTUA documents were produced during the main events narrated in ASOUE. Part of the documents were produced before the main events narrated in ASOUE. And part of the documents were produced after the main events narrated in ASOUE. For me, understanding this is the first step. Then it is to determine when each document was produced, in each of these classifications.
Regarding Olaf's death ... I thought Daniel Handler had already planned Olaf's death when he wrote LSTUA. But just as Kit's death had not been planned, the secret letter in TSS is evidence that Olaf's death was also not planned by Daniel Handler. Then, the LSTUA universe neither Kit nor Olaf had died. This is another defective piece in the puzzle.
With respect to Prufrock Prep ... That's where it all comes together. On purpose, DH shows that while the book TRR was already published, Prufrock Prep was still working. He was aware of what he had written in TAA that Prufrock Prep had been closed for many years during the writing of TAA. He was so aware of this, that the case involving miss K involves exactly what he had written about it in TAA. An attentive reader will notice that several years have passed between the masked ball and Lemony's return from abroad. Lemony's false death led the DP journalist to believe that the Baudelaires' stories would be interrupted. For me, it is clear that there is a gap there. A hiatus that Lemony did not publish, because he was abroad and officially dead. This is one of the things that DH really thought of. Lemony's return from the dead to continue ASOUE's writing after a few years is very important in LSTUA. It's the hidden twist. The attempt to hide this twist is also very evident. DH created an older story, when Lemony fled abroad too, on the same ship, at the same time of day. He did this to confuse us in this specific aspect.
Regarding Lemony's capture, you're right. I don't think I explained myself well. Lemony was captured at the party by his enemies, not by the police. But still, apparently he got involved with the police afterwards. The police came looking for evidence that Lemony was at the party. There, he had probably already been arrested (or at least he had already received an arrest warrant, which is more likely). After he received the arrest warrant, he became a fugitive, which is what the chapter 1 report is about. I like to think that he was actually arrested and then ran away, because that matches something that Lemony talks about a jailer (or jail boss, I don't remember). It may have been on another occasion, it is true.
But in any case, the story complements and advances, when you do not consider several publications. Likewise, Lemony implies that he has been unable to publish for years. This is evident in Sally's letter to Lemony, and in Lemony's letter to cheesemakers about zombies in the snow.
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