OFFICIAL BOOK TWELVE DICUSSION THREAD.

[beatriceblake]

Poor Dewey. I don't think the Baudelaires are responsible for his death though. They used themselves as a human shield. They didn't mean to drop the weapon. Unhappily the same can't be said for the end of the book when Sunny suggests burning down the hotel. While it is clear some people will die I wouldn't care to say for sure who does. Even the people who didn't believe the Bauds will smell smoke and try and get out.

Maybe the tragedy of the Baudelaires is going to be that despite all their attempts not to end up villains, they do. The rest of VFD is not doing much better. Quigley has stolen a helicopter, Kit was involved in the poison darts thing and we know from TGG that some of its members were planning to poison their enemies with the Medusoid Mycelium.

I am very confused by the whole poison darts thing. It would be helpful if we had some idea of the ages of the Baudelaire parents and Count Olaf. It certainly sounds as if the Baudelaire parents killed Olaf's parents but I think Olaf mentions being orphaned at age seven which would make the Baudelaire parents significantly older than Olaf if indeed they did kill his parents.

[Antenora]

I'd always assumed that Olaf was older than the Baudelaire parents, but you're right--if the Baudelaire parents killed his parents when he was seven, they're probably fairly old. Maybe they were sent to kill Olaf's parents while they were still neophytes. If they were about ten when Olaf was seven, and he's about 45-50 now(the lowest I usually estimate his age to be) it sort of works out. Still, the idea of two children(who might have lost their parents) killing someone's parents is pretty disturbing.

[karol1096]

Hey guys....I have just finished reading the book and im sorry to say that i was somewhat dissapointed....Dont get me wrong i thought it was a great book but just not what i expected......If this the longest book in the series then i was at least hoping for some answers intead of new questrions...i mean we didnt find out any secrets that we have been pondering for the past year or so but we were given new ones and i just don't see how handler can answer all of these questions in the 13th book without making it by far the longest....i mean these secrets have been intorduced as early as TVV so if it took him 6 books to tell us all of them ...he expects to answer them all in one book...in my opinion he should have at least ansered some questions but i guess he diddnt want to...let me know if u guys agree with me or just think im a complanier..lol i dont no i loved the book but i was hoping for a little more concrete answers thats all

[PJ]

tocuna said:

I'd always assumed that Olaf was older than the Baudelaire parents, but you're right--if the Baudelaire parents killed his parents when he was seven, they're probably fairly old. Maybe they were sent to kill Olaf's parents while they were still neophytes. If they were about ten when Olaf was seven, and he's about 45-50 now(the lowest I usually estimate his age to be) it sort of works out. Still, the idea of two children(who might have lost their parents) killing someone's parents is pretty disturbing.

I don't recall anything about Olaf being an orphan in ANY of the other books.
The way I see it, they orphaned him in the Baudelaires' lifetime, i.e a year or two ago, which might have turned Olaf to the bad side of the schism, or, at least, against those people that murdered his parents. It would also explain why he's so vehemently going after the Baudelaires; the Quagmires, too, they're part of VFD, and Olaf would prefer to kidnap VFDer kids than normal ones, I'm sure.

The bit about when Olaf is 7 years old and the Baud mum is....interesting. Perhaps they are siblings? But that would mean the Baudmum killed her own parents, which is unlikely. Cousins, then, or somehting. An unpleasant cousin is mentioned too often in the books to go on unnoticed.

[Antenora]

I think the schism's been going on for longer than Olaf's lifetime, though. If the Baudelaires parents were killing Olaf's parents, it had probably been under way for some time.

And if Olaf is a sibling, or cousin, of either Baudelaire parent, that would contradict the "fourth cousin three times removed, or vice versa" statements we've heard about him in the past. Wasn't the unpleasant cousin, the one who liked to burn ants, specified as female? Or was there more than one of them?

If the killing of Olaf's parents happened a year or two ago...that's an interesting possibility. But assuming that Olaf is at least in his forties currently, it doesn't fit with him being orphaned as a child.

[Eye Of The Count]

How do you get to be three times removed or four times removed?

[dirkamoeba]

eyeofthecount said:

How do you get to be three times removed or four times removed?

If the Bauds are Olaf's fourth cousin three times removed, then they are the grandschildren of his fourth cousin. If they are his third cousin four times removied, then they are his third cousin's great-grandchildren.

I assume that everyone in the hotel has died. Lemony's speech implies that he does not know what happened to any of them after the fire, which means as far as Lemony knows they are dead and therefore they will not likely re-enter the story.

[lauren]

dirkamoeba said:

eyeofthecount said:

How do you get to be three times removed or four times removed?

I assume that everyone in the hotel has died. Lemony's speech implies that he does not know what happened to any of them after the fire, which means as far as Lemony knows they are dead and therefore they will not likely re-enter the story.

Sad but true

[hobo2312]

I got the impression that Olaf's first wicked deed was done at age 7. Mother Baud tells him that he'll fail, and he apparently didn't. As to what it was that he did, hopefuly that's in book 13.

The revelation that Olaf was an orphan shocked me, especially given his derision of orphans in past books. Don't get me wrong, I like it. It makes him a more complex character.

[PJ]

tocuna said:

And if Olaf is a sibling, or cousin, of either Baudelaire parent, that would contradict the "fourth cousin three times removed, or vice versa" statements we've heard about him in the past. Wasn't the unpleasant cousin, the one who liked to burn ants, specified as female? Or was there more than one of them?

That was in TWW, once, about the awful cousin that used sunlight to burn ants with a magnifying glass.

But there are several references to an annoying cousin.
I can only think of the one in TGG, though, but I'm sure there are more.

[I am the Assasin Chicken]

I was quite dissapointed in the book, i thought as Karol said, would get some questions answered, this was not one of my favorite books...

[RockSunner]

philipjucker said:

I don't recall anything about Olaf being an orphan in ANY of the other books.
The way I see it, they orphaned him in the Baudelaires' lifetime, i.e a year or two ago, which might have turned Olaf to the bad side of the schism, or, at least, against those people that murdered his parents. It would also explain why he's so vehemently going after the Baudelaires; the Quagmires, too, they're part of VFD, and Olaf would prefer to kidnap VFDer kids than normal ones, I'm sure.

The bit about when Olaf is 7 years old and the Baud mum is....interesting. Perhaps they are siblings? But that would mean the Baudmum killed her own parents, which is unlikely. Cousins, then, or somehting. An unpleasant cousin is mentioned too often in the books to go on unnoticed.

I don't think the murder of Olaf's parents caused the schism or turned Olaf to the dark side -- he was already evil by that time. This is how I reason it:

1) Dewey's parents were killed in a fire when he was five (pp. 179-180). The schism began the year before, when he was four.

2) Olaf confessed to starting that fire (p. 207) "Thanks to me, you two are the only survivors of the entire family!"

3) Kit is about the same age as Dewey (p. 7).

I don't think it's plausible that Kit gave the poison darts to the Baudelaires at the opera when she was a child of four of five. Therefore, the murder of Olaf's parents didn't cause the schism or make Olaf evil (since he had already killed at least one family by arson by then).

I like the theory that the murder of Olaf's parents is a recent thing, within the Baudelaire childrens' lifetime. It fits better with Klaus remembering that his parents took a taxi to the opera. There might be vengeance involved, with Kit helping to kill the parents of the man who killed her lover's parents.

On the matter of their mother's words to Olaf: "You'll fail" is something even a young child could say (Sunny did). So the fact that the Baudelaire's mother said this to Olaf and he did something that proved her wrong by age 7 doesn't establish that she is much older than him; she could be a little younger. They need not be siblings or cousins, as long as they knew each other some way -- perhaps they met in V.F.D. training.

[Eye Of The Count]

DOESN'T LEMONY GIVE US THE HINT THAT DEWEY MADE KIT PREGNATE?

[callum]

i like the fact that kit is pregnant although lemony never mentioned a nephew or neice did he... strange

maybe kit and the baby die

[Sora]

I would doubt it. Lemony may not of mentioned it because of the fact the baby had not been born yet. The timeline of the series is rather vague.