The End: Official Discussion

[Volunteer]

Yeah, leaving us with more answers than quetions is cool, but I feel (Hope I'm wrong) Snicket/handler may not be doing that. I think that the publication of TBL definitavely points to another series. What other reason is there? Not just to hint at the beatrice twist, certainly. TBL hints that after leaving the island more exciting things happen, presumably w/ the underwater ? mark, and Beatrice must now hunt down Snicket, probobly coming across all those ASOUE characters. Lets hope I'm wrong though.

[Dante]

If he did write another series, he'd have to openly defy the message and themes he really hammered in again and again in The End about the Great Unknown and secrets being kept, along with his own statement that his investigation was over and he didn't know what more happened to the Baudelaires. (Clue should be in the title - The End.) The way I see it, TBL complements that - as well as serving its purpose as the big book of B13 foreshadowing - with its vague hints at the future, and sailing away to something new. TPP's also with us on that, as it told us that what we do not know, we can only imagine - TBL helps us to imagine what more could have happened, and in addition, more than anything else it shows us that the cycle of misfortune and unanswered questions will continue in much the same way as before, and a clone series would be boring. (And TBL had to be something more than just letters Lemony sent to the older Beatrice, as I imagine that would quickly get very same-y, and feel too much like an answer book.)

If worst comes to the worst, I'll just call any new series a sell-out by Snicket and strike it from the canon.

[Spymaster E]

ffwf said:

Since the broken nameplate on the poster showed the name Beatrice, whereas in the book that nameplate wasn't uncovered until Chapter Fourteen and wasn't broken, then we presume so. It also adds more significance to the anagram of BEATRICE SANK, as it tells us something we couldn't learn just by reading The End.

What about BB to LS #6? It sounds like it comes from the first Beatrice as a reply to LS to BB#1 at the beggining of the book. (You might have to flip open the book again to know what I'm talking about?)

And sorry for bumping the thread. I'd hoped nobody would mind, since it was stickied.

[Antenora]

jamesquagmire said:

ffwf said:

Since the broken nameplate on the poster showed the name Beatrice, whereas in the book that nameplate wasn't uncovered until Chapter Fourteen and wasn't broken, then we presume so. It also adds more significance to the anagram of BEATRICE SANK, as it tells us something we couldn't learn just by reading The End.

What about BB to LS #6? It sounds like it comes from the first Beatrice as a reply to LS to BB#1 at the beggining of the book. (You might have to flip open the book again to know what I'm talking about?)

I doubt it. Everything else in TBL seems to follow a chronological order, even if it's two different time tracks. The odd convergences in phrasing between various letters are a meta-joke on Handler's part, tying in with the Series' themes of the same stories playing out over and over in different contexts. By that reasoning, the final calling card from Beatrice might have been intended for an entirely different LS.

[Dante]

I'm not quite sure what your point is, but no, the context of BB to LS #6 is completely different; for one thing, it's an initiating move rather than a response, and the name and address on the card combined with the given age of the writer mean that it can only be Kit's daughter (as the first Beatrice would not have been called Baudelaire until her marriage) and in addition, it takes place in the café itself, whereas Lemony's card to Beatrice took place within their school or its grounds. It wouldn't really make any sense as a response by Beatrice to the first calling card. (I also subscribe to a different interpretation of that card to what is apparently the majority interpretation, but that's not relevant here.)

Edit: And indeed, as Antenora noted, the similar phrasing, structure and materials of the various letters are thematic, contributing to an idea of cyclic history - the idea that the series of unfortunate events will carry on, "unhappily ever after."

[lemonydrink]

Could Olaf be the other Snicket sibling?
There is no mention of Olaf's surname, and "Olaf" could certainly be his christian name.

Olaf Snicket?

[Dante]

Which "other" Snicket sibling would that be? We already have the full set - Jacques, Kit, and Lemony.

That said, there's nothing to stop Olaf being a Snicket by some other relation, and the U.A.'s Family Tree is generally cited in support of this. "Olaf" is generally considered to be his first name rather than his surname - regardless of what may be true of other fictional and real counts - given that most characters call each other by their forenames, and he's frequently referred to in the U.A. and TBL simply as O. Of course, these have problems and get-outs as well, largely due to the fact that we just have no clue of his full name, or indeed any indication that it's important.

[lemonydrink]

I guess I probably didn't me "the" other Snicket, but certainly I conjectured that he might be "an" other Snicket.

Maybe he's a half brother or cousin or something. I don't know what I'm saying now... but my point is, he has to be "related" (not necessarily familially) to the other characters in some way. We know that the BOs were sent there first, and that he was supposed to be some sort of "distant relative" - though now that we know Mr Poe might be an associate of Olaf, and not at all on the BOs' side, perhaps Mr Poe just did this on purpose.

The problem with that theory, is that they were also sent to obvious nobles, like Monty, and that "Aunt" Josephine. The connection to "Aunt" Josephine is obvious - a VFD associate on the "noble" (non arsonist) side of the Schism.

But I still don't think the parents burned to death. Perhaps they died, but I don't think they burned. I don't have any [i[evidence[/i] but I just don't think it's true.

Why do I feel like we are going around in circles here???

And what is "UA"?

[Dante]

lemonydrink said:

And what is "UA"?

Unauthorized Autobiography - that is, Lemony Snicket: The Unauthorized Autobiography. A family tree in the U.A. indicated that Olaf was a cousin of the Snicket siblings, although the likelihood of that particular interpretation of the diagram has varied with each book (some suggest one interpretation of the diagram, others suggest another - I think Handler either changed his mind or was just toying with us).

I personally find it usually makes the most sense and is most convenient to take what's occurring in the books at face value - particularly in the earlier books, as there are indications that Daniel Handler only came up with the idea of V.F.D. after TMM. That said, part of the point of the later books is that we get to make up our own mind on how to interpret events and the truth behind things, and Daniel Handler's said so himself:

Daniel said:

If readers draw their own conclusions and speak of such conclusions out loud, then this information will indeed be disclosed

So long as whatever evidence you contradict can be reasonably contradicted, everyone is welcome to their theories, although you can't claim that they are what Handler intended.

[jman]

Tis true. We can each come to our own satisfying conclusions (unless they are solidly contradicted).

[thistledown]

I, personally, don't think that Olaf is directly related to Kit or Lemony of Jacques. Because he kissed Kit. And if he really were directly related that would be wrong. Very wrong. *coughcoughincest*

However, V.F.D. seems to be made up of interrelated families which is disturbing if you think about it too much...but ah--V.F.D. likes to keep it 'in the family', or so it would seem.

So I guess anything's possible. And *sighs* I guess what I just wrote made no real point, just reiterated...so...yeah...

[adumdee]

I have heard of a final illustration at the end of 'The End' which depicts an ocean and the great unknown. However, in my copy, no such thing exists. Could anyone post this image/link it please? I am curious

[Beatrice Snicket]

Ok, first of all, what do the letters on the posters in TBL spell and..... what if the Voilet, Sunny, and Klaus mentioned in the book were Beatrice's siblings because it says that it was custom to name someone after someone who had died or, what if the Beatrice that the letters were to was Kit's daughter?

[Dante]

The letters on the poster in TBL spell "BEATRICE SANK," and this is generally thought to refer to the ship Beatrice which the Baudelaires sail away from the island in in Chapter Fourteen. It's generally agreed that the Beatrice writing to Lemony Snicket in TBL was Kit's daughter, and the Beatrice that Lemony Snicket was writing to was the Baudelaires' mother, who Kit's daughter was named after. The Violet, Klaus and Sunny in TBL being different individuals isn't an idea I've heard before; it might work, but there don't seem to be too many difficulties with them being the same Baudelaires followed in the main series.

[violetbaudelaire22]

what does page 189 say exactly. i have the beatrice letters and i need the questions. before i freak out.