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Post by Dante on Oct 15, 2014 3:24:42 GMT -5
It's a good question, isn't it? I've had this ending in mind for a while where he'll fall into the ocean and get taken by the real Great Unknown.
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Post by gliquey on Oct 15, 2014 10:09:02 GMT -5
Much though Olaf may have slaughtered his way through many people over the course of ASoUE, somehow Hangfire turning serial killer seems a little bit dark for ATWQ. Maybe it's because we know these people quite well by now and value their lives, whereas life was honestly pretty cheap in ASoUE. I agree - it doesn't make much logical sense, but Hangfire mass killing would seem much darker than the loss of lives in ASOUE. Maybe it's the warnings given ahead of time: for instance, we were told Uncle Monty would die chapters before he did. Or maybe it's that reality doesn't seem to work in the same way in ASOUE. Crimes like arson and stealing boats are just skipped over in ASOUE and even murder isn't given much thought.
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Post by Dante on Oct 15, 2014 10:46:15 GMT -5
For that matter, I can't really imagine Snicket considering murdering Hangfire, even for a second, but I don't know if the Baudelaires would or wouldn't have pushed Olaf overboard given the chance.
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facelesscreature
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“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
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Post by facelesscreature on Oct 15, 2014 10:58:33 GMT -5
Considering the way Lemony ended ASoUE, I'd say Hangfire will die. Otherwise, there may have been mentions of him in ASoUE that went way overlooked.
It is possible though that Hangfire may live. He may disguise himself as someone from ASoUE?
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Post by gliquey on Oct 15, 2014 12:02:56 GMT -5
He may disguise himself as someone from ASoUE? It'd be a great plot twist, but can you think of any characters Hangfire would disguise himself as? Olaf doesn't seem that clever, and is more outwardly ridiculous; Esme doesn't work as Hangfire is assumed to be male;* it could possibly be the man with a beard but no hair, but I'm not sure his personality fits with Hangfire's, and a few people (I think including Dante) have expressed concern for any backstory involving the duo as it could take away their aura of menace. *The voice Ellington heard on the phone, of the person claiming to be Hangfire, was male, so this gave them a reason to think Hangfire was male (other than sexist assumption). However, we know that Hangfire can imitate any voice, including those of women, so it's not impossible that Hangfire is female (unless I'm missing some concrete evidence - did Nurse Dander ever give us any?). For the Armstrong Feint = Hangfire theory, Hangfire would be male, and (I think, from memory) Snicket uses masculine pronouns when discussing Hangfire (both in narrator and character form), so it's generally assumed that Hangfire is male.
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Post by Dante on Oct 15, 2014 14:38:50 GMT -5
Hangfire has successfully disguised himself as a male butler, and one presumes appears to have a male figure whilst in the guise of Colonel Colophon and in his masked appearances in ?3. I have considered the possibility that Hangfire is secretly a female character, yes, but you would have to ask yourself what the point is. Hangfire being Armstrong Feint appeals for a number of reasons; Hangfire being a yet-unknown female character is a bit different.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 15, 2014 14:43:56 GMT -5
Am I right, by the way, in thinking that it is only in ?3 that members of his own organisation have called him 'Hangfire'? I think previously we knew this name only from his alleged letter to Mr Feint, which gives Ellington the idea that this is the villain's name, while L picks it up from her. But now it's being used more widely - so I fear I must abandon my theory that there was no real Hangfire, and 'Colonel Colophon' was actually someone intimidated into playing a part.
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Post by Dante on Oct 15, 2014 16:08:27 GMT -5
Dr. Flammarion declares, in Chapter Twelve of ?2, "You'll never get your hands on Armstrong Feint. You'll never get your hands on Hangfire." I like to think that the repetition is because he realised he'd let too much slip and quickly corrected himself.
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Post by gliquey on Oct 16, 2014 1:45:32 GMT -5
but you would have to ask yourself what the point is. Well, I only brought up gender when someone suggested that Hangfire is someone from ASOUE (or vice versa, depending on your chronology). If you wanted to keep your options wide, you might want to include female antagonists from the series. The problem is, I can't think of anyone from ASOUE - male or female - that suits Hangfire, from what little we know about him. I think previously we knew this name only from his alleged letter to Mr Feint, which gives Ellington the idea that this is the villain's name, while L picks it up from her. But now it's being used more widely - so I fear I must abandon my theory that there was no real Hangfire, and 'Colonel Colophon' was actually someone intimidated into playing a part. Like the gender of Hangfire, his name is something that's been assumed with little real evidence, but is probably true anyway. I remember on one reading wondering where they got the name "Hangfire" from, and it took me a while to work it out. Dr. Flammarion declares, in Chapter Twelve of ?2, "You'll never get your hands on Armstrong Feint. You'll never get your hands on Hangfire." I like to think that the repetition is because he realised he'd let too much slip and quickly corrected himself. Whereas I read it as either a deliberate attempt to throw them off the trail, because Armstrong is Hangfire, or just an afterthought, because they are two separate people. Your interpretation is probably better - it would be more obvious what to think if we could hear the lines being spoken.
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Post by Dante on Oct 16, 2014 3:31:57 GMT -5
Whereas I read it as either a deliberate attempt to throw them off the trail, because Armstrong is Hangfire, or just an afterthought, because they are two separate people. Your interpretation is probably better - it would be more obvious what to think if we could hear the lines being spoken. Well, that is the fun of literature. Whose interpretation is correct? As the words are on the page, nobody's, everybody's.
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facelesscreature
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“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
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Post by facelesscreature on Oct 17, 2014 8:28:54 GMT -5
I suggested that Hangfire may disguise himself as someone from ASoUE. It can also be noted that when someone disguises themselves, they will take on other characteristics, habits, and traits. (Like Esme did when she pretended not to be a wicked person to lure the Baudelaires into a trap.)
Here are some options: (I'm assuming that Hangfire is definitely male.) Mr. Poe - because in TE of ASoUE, Ishmael says that he wasn't always called that? Sir - because his face is never seen and he does smoke cigars, possibly the way Hangfire smokes fake cigarettes to counteract laudanum? A mysterious taxi driver - because in TPP, a mysterious taxi driver offers the Baudelaires a ride that could have possibly took them toward more misfortune? Olaf - because it is unclear how old Olaf or Hangfire really is? Also the fact that Olaf disguises his voice numerous times in ASoUE?
Note: These are just suggestions that may not be true; however, it certainly would be a nice plot twist.
Also, I like the idea that Armstrong is Hangfire. I also like the idea that Olaf could have once been Hangfire. The thought of Olaf once having a daughter when he was a younger man is very interesting. It could make his motives in ASoUE seem justified?
Or, what if Hangfire is really Olaf's brother? This is possible considering everyone else in ASoUE had close relatives. This idea could also make readers see Olaf's motives differently.
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Post by bandit on Oct 20, 2014 9:59:54 GMT -5
But we have seen Hangfire's face, twice (as the butler and when he was coming out of the Department of Education). He just looks like a regular guy.
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Post by gliquey on Oct 20, 2014 12:30:23 GMT -5
and isn't the mysterious taxi driver Lemony? It's strongly implied to be Lemony. But that depends on your interpretation. It's not definitive.
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Post by Dante on Oct 20, 2014 14:12:18 GMT -5
But we have seen Hangfire's face, twice (as the butler and when he was coming out of the Department of Education). He just looks like a regular guy. And especially is very good at making himself appear as just a regular guy, nondescript, unmemorable.
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facelesscreature
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“I suppose I'll have to add the force of gravity to my list of enemies.”
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Post by facelesscreature on Oct 20, 2014 14:46:20 GMT -5
The fact Hangfire doesn't have a distinguishing characteristic (other than mimicking voices and sounds) is what makes his appearance seem the most mysterious. It makes him seem faceless to the volunteers. Even Olaf had certain characteristics that made him noticeable when he was in disguise. It's almost as if Hangfire is always in disguise so you never know his true identity.
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