Antenora
Detriment Deleter 
Fiendish Philologist
Put down that harpoon gun, in the name of these wonderful birds!
Posts: 15,891 
Likes: 113
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Post by Antenora on Apr 8, 2004 21:26:21 GMT -5
Do you think that "Under God" should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance? I do, because it refers to a specific God and we are supposed to have freedom of religion here. I like to change it to "one nation, many gods"; please don't burn me at the stake for that.
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Post by Madamluna on Apr 8, 2004 21:30:34 GMT -5
Me too. The only reason it was even put IN the pledge (in the fifties) was to weed out Communists, and since I don't really fear the Red Menace peeking over my shoulder and drowning us in borscht or whatever they were going to do, I think it's time to take it out.
And the entire "no official religion" thing, yes.
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Post by Dark on Apr 8, 2004 21:31:27 GMT -5
See, I'm mexican so I'm not very sure of what you mean.
If you mean like in the court when someone declares 'under God' that he/she is saying the truth, blah, blah. I agree with you, it should be removed. Not only because of being about an specific religion/God, but because gov't and church should not mix up.
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Post by Madamluna on Apr 8, 2004 21:33:03 GMT -5
Ah, it's okay.
For those of you not in America, the American Pledge of Allegiance goes:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Post by JeromeSqualor on Apr 8, 2004 21:35:31 GMT -5
I think it should stay (And I alreadt can tell, right here, that Luna is gonna jump all over me) because God, real or not, is a sort of love, that often can hold people together... Take away God, and what peace does our country have left?
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Post by Dark on Apr 8, 2004 21:38:32 GMT -5
And what about atheits?? They will never be together w/someone else because they don't love god?
I also think that the 'In God We Trust' should be removewd from the bills and coins.
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Post by embah on Apr 8, 2004 22:21:58 GMT -5
I didn't know what you were talking about at first, as I'm not American, but I see your point.
But doesn't every religion have a god? Even if it's not the Christianity god, it may be some other god whom they worship.
But I think that they include "under god" in the pledge because religion is a dominating part of every culture, even if some individuals don't believe in or follow it. Because alot of people are religious, then the pledge, referring to all Americans, refers to them too, and the beliefs of those people do have an effect on society.
Also, god is the difference between right and wrong (according to the bible) so in the justice and court system, they include "under god" to prove that their's is a society where everyone's beliefs and values are put into perspective and account.
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Post by Celinra on Apr 8, 2004 22:28:41 GMT -5
I think it should stay, but people shouldn't be forced to say that line.
For example, at another forum I go to, someone said that they were required to say it or they'd get detention, unless they could get their religious leader to sign a form that said they didn't follow that religion, and thus didn't have to say that line. However, this person was an athiest, and so had no religious leader to sign this form for them.
I don't think that sort of thing is fair. It should be up to the person whether to say it or not, not the school.
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Post by Madamluna on Apr 8, 2004 22:29:38 GMT -5
I didn't know what you were talking about at first, as I'm not American, but I see your point. But doesn't every religion have a god? Even if it's not the Christianity god, it may be some other god whom they worship. Various religions have one to several to more than a hundred gods. However, there's always the "what about the atheists/agnostics" angles to remember. "The efforts to bring God into the state reached their peak during the so-called "religious revival" of the 1950s. It was a time when Norman Vincent Peale grafted religion onto the era's feel-good consumerism in his best-selling The Power of Positive Thinking; when Billy Graham rose to fame as a Red-baiter who warned that Americans would perish in a nuclear holocaust unless they embraced Jesus Christ; when Secretary of State John Foster Dulles believed that the United States should oppose communism not because the Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime but because its leaders were atheists. Hand in hand with the Red Scare, to which it was inextricably linked, the new religiosity overran Washington. Politicians outbid one another to prove their piety. President Eisenhower inaugurated that Washington staple: the prayer breakfast. Congress created a prayer room in the Capitol. In 1955, with Ike's support, Congress added the words "In God We Trust" on all paper money. In 1956 it made the same four words the nation's official motto, replacing "E Pluribus Unum." Legislators introduced Constitutional amendments to state that Americans obeyed "the authority and law of Jesus Christ." ~ The Pledge of Allegiance - Why we're not one nation "under God." by Paul Greenberg |
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Post by Charles Vane on Apr 8, 2004 22:32:57 GMT -5
At first I was thinking it shouldn't be removed, I put it down on a poll thingy at school then my friend informed me it wasn't orignally there like Luna said so I changed my mind.
I'm thinking that trying to take religion out of things we'll end up doing the opposite of free speech y not letting people talk about religion.
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Post by Madamluna on Apr 8, 2004 22:36:20 GMT -5
I'm thinking that trying to take religion out of things we'll end up doing the opposite of free speech y not letting people talk about religion. Hey, good point you brought up there. I don't think we'll be letting people "not talk about religion," just that we won't really bring it into...eh...more governmental affairs, if that makes sense. I mean, it's like prayer in schools--you can talk about God and religion in school, but prayer isn't mandatory. |
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Post by tex mexx on Apr 9, 2004 0:57:57 GMT -5
Prayer isnt mandatory but think about it, if you don't say it people start calling you "unpatriotic" and all that. Even though it's not mandatory, everyone expects you to say the pledge, though it is heavily directed towards God.
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Luigi
Bewildered Beginner
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Post by Luigi on Apr 9, 2004 1:04:18 GMT -5
I don't believe "under God" should be in the pledge, but I do not and will not go to the gov't with whining. Make a stand yourself--JUST DON'T SAY THE GODDAMN TWO WORDS.
People who believe in God should be allowed to say "under God" and people who don't should be allowed not to say it.
I believe in antidisestablishmentarianism, seperation between church and state (or is antidisestablishmentarianism the opposite? Anyway...) but it's ridiculous. I think we should be worried about getting religion out of gov't in other places.
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Post by tex mexx on Apr 9, 2004 1:09:36 GMT -5
the pledge really sounds weird without the 2 words, "Under god." yay! 100th post   |
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Post by Madamluna on Apr 9, 2004 6:35:32 GMT -5
I don't believe "under God" should be in the pledge, but I do not and will not go to the gov't with whining. Make a stand yourself--JUST DON'T SAY THE GODDAMN TWO WORDS. People who believe in God should be allowed to say "under God" and people who don't should be allowed not to say it. I believe in antidisestablishmentarianism, seperation between church and state (or is antidisestablishmentarianism the opposite? Anyway...) but it's ridiculous. I think we should be worried about getting religion out of gov't in other places. I dunno. I mean, I make it a point to not say the pledge at all until they take "under God" out of it, since it really does make me feel uncomfortable. To use another weird analogy, say that you're part of a group of one hundred people and every morning you have to eat a bagel, and it has raisins in it. And you hate raisins a lot/are allergic to them and whoever's in charge knows this. And this is all the breakfast you get. So it's either SHUT UP AND EAT YOUR RAISINS, eat around the raisins, or not eat at all. Or you could wait until whoever's in charge gives you everything-bagels instead which taste better anyway AND you can eat them. Actually, putting it this way, eating around the raisins makes a lot more sense than just waiting until you get everything-bagels, but since bagels don't really equal religion I guess it was a bad metaphor to use. Crap, lemme switch tracks again. I'm getting hungry. I don't know its dictionary definition, but I think "antidisestablishmentarianism" is "support for business" or something. I'm probably wrong, though. But see, the thing about having "under God" in the pledge is that it assumes that everyone who says it believes in only one God, and if you don't say the pledge then you're unpatriotic. Kind of a really simplified catch-22. Sure you can go ahead and not say the two words, but it's the spirit of the thing that matters. |
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