Gay Marriage

[Fancy]

Amen to that.

[rebecca]

Feb 18, 2012 16:07:13 GMT -5 BSam said:

Now that's what I call a good Christian.

"Yeah, my God is against it, but don't let that stop you."

Are you being sarcastic?

[Lady Whatever]

Well, my sweetheart and I have decided we're not going to get married until after we both have our master's degrees, but when we do get married, it's going to be absolutely fabulous. We're still deciding whether to get married in my homeland, Hawaii, which recently legalized civil unions, or whether to do it here in British Columbia. There's a really cool place in Hawaii called The Galaxy Garden which I think would be really neat for a small wedding, and for a bigger wedding, a place like the Butchart Gardens would be perfect. I already know which colour scheme I want for the actual wedding, my favourite colour is plum, and her favourite colour is jade, so we'll be incorporating those, and I think we'll have a Japanese-Edwardian theme to it all.
(Now, be honest with yourself, if this wasn't posted in a thread on gay marriage, and just a regular old marital thread, and the pronouns weren't obvious, would you be able to tell the difference between what I described above and a heterosexual bride gushing about her wedding? I don't think so. Why then, should our love and marriage be regarded as different, unworthy, or inferior? Literally all that's different is the gender of the person I'm marrying)

[rebecca]

I have nothing personal against you or your fiance or any homosexual person. I've struggled with my stance on homosexuality for a long time. To be quite honest, I would be delighted to be proven wrong--that God is completely okay with homosexuality. But after thinking and praying and studying for a long time about it, I've decided that God knows what's best, and there are certain things that I just cannot and am not meant to understand. So I just trust him, even if I don't like it. I'm sorry that that conflicts with your lifestyle.

P.S. The Galaxy Garden looks really awesome.

[BSam]

Nom, "which recently legalized civil unions, " that part gives it away slightly. And the fact I already knew. Congrats for whenever and wherever it happens!

Feb 19, 2012 14:05:07 GMT -5 rebecca said:

Feb 18, 2012 16:07:13 GMT -5 BSam said:

Now that's what I call a good Christian.

"Yeah, my God is against it, but don't let that stop you."

Are you being sarcastic?

Not at all, I think it's brilliant.

(these are my clumsy hungover thoughts, hope they are kinda coherent)

A lot of faiths/religions have some clause against homosexuality, and it's tough when homosexual while part of that faith, but it's something that someone has to work out on their own whether to believe in something that is essentially against who they are.
(The question of whether these faiths should be against homosexuality is another question, but I'm not going into that here)

But for a faith/religion that has next to no relevance to your own life, deciding to deny you certain rights because of this homosexuality, that's terrible, it's worse when it works, and they have this influence on the law making process.

[Lady Whatever]

Actually, there's literally nothing in the Bible, anywhere, that condemns my lifestyle. Leviticus 20:13 and the story of Lot are the only passages I remember which specifically relates to homosexuality, and it says absolutely nothing about lesbians. Just relates to a man who "lies with another man as he does with a woman", or who sexually subjugates their male guests. Loopholes hooray!
In my sect of Judaism, this has been interpreted by the Rabbinical council as not being related to homosexuality, it's thought to be specifically referring to conduct during warfare, it was commonplace for the enemy to be taken as trophies and slaves, and slaves of both sexes were subject to rape by their masters. The rabbis therefore believe that Leviticus and the story of Lot are not condemnations against homosexuality, but are encouragements to be kind to slaves and to not abuse and rape your guests the way the Sodomites did. This ties in to another biblical passage, Exodus 22:21: "You must not mistreat or oppress foreigners in any way. Remember, you yourselves were once foreigners in the land of Egypt." Interestingly, in Medieval European Christianity, refusing hospitality to a guest was an atrocious sin on the same grievous level as murder and rape.
Since you are a Christian though, the Hebrew Bible should concern you less than a Christian passage, specifically, Matthew 7:1-2- "“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Can anyone tell that at one point, I was considering studying to be a rabbi as my career?

[rebecca]

I agree with your interpretation of the two passages you mentioned. The passage that hangs me up is Romans 1:26-27: "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
The judging passage that you mentioned, though, I feel has been overused. Paul does tell us that the Bible "is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". Paul also says that we should try not to offend anyone about anything, except when it comes to matters about God's truth; then we shouldn't back down, because we're doing them a bigger disservice if we stay silent. (Sorry, I know the last one is really vague; my pastor preached on it a few weeks ago, but for the life of me I can't find the specific verse he was referencing. Derp. If I figure it out, I'll add it.)
By the way, please don't think that I'm trying to hammer you with righteousness or something. That isn't my intention. I just want to explain why I believe what I do.

[Lady Whatever]

I'm not all that familiar with Paul, since I'm not a Christian.
All of it is irrelevant to the bigger issue about gay marriage though: My human rights trump anyone's opinion of my "lifestyle", whether that opinion stems from a religious point of view or a differing one. Marriage in the US (And Canada and Australia) isn't a religious institution, it's a secular one, primarily for the purposes of taxation. I still remember laughing in hollow sadness with my friends during tax season; there was no option on their W2 when filing jointly for "married in Vermont but marriage not recognized at the federal level", so it was quite a headache to sort out how to file it.
I've seen a country where religion is the primary gatekeeper in marriage, specifically, Israel (By the way, in Israel, Civil Unions are legal, and gay marriages performed in Europe, Canada, or certain US states are recognized as valid and treated equally) where the religious courts decide over marriages, inter-marriage between people of different faiths and different classes (Someone from a Kohen or Levite class, for instance, couldn't marry me, because my mother a gerim, or non Jewish by birth convert) is illegal, and you need to seek the approval of a religious court in order to obtain a divorce, both partners need to consent, and need to present themselves before the Chief Rabbinate, and surrender their children's right to marry someone from the Kohen or Levite class for the divorce.
I seriously doubt that system sounds appealing to anyone, and we'd prefer to keep marriage a secular tradition where the state, not religion, is the authority, for everyone.

[Michelle Denouement]

For the last 6, almost 7 years, I have been raised by my mom and her female partner. My mom's partner works in the public sector, which has the best health insurance in the state (Scott Walker was trying to take that away.) There was a lot a red tape to go through, but my mom, my brother, and I are on her partner's health insurance. Wisconsin doesn't recognize same-sex marriage, but they recognize and perform same sex domestic partnerships.

There is a double standard in modern society (at least in America) and in the Bible about homosexuality. As Nominatissima mentioned, in the Book of Leviticus, it says that male homosexuality is a sin, but it says nothing about homosexuality in females. In modern society, it's perfectly acceptable for two women to be kissing and holding hands, but for men, it's looked down upon.

Being raised by a same sex couple made me more open-minded. I am straight, but I will not get married until same-sex marriage is legal in all states.

[rebecca]

violet-- I don't think there's a double standard in the Bible. If you look at the verse I posted, it clearly mentions women too. Even if it didn't, though, I wouldn't consider it a double standard; the Bible just seems to be written so it generally refers to all people as "men". It talks about how a man shall not kill his brother, but that doesn't mean that it's ok for a woman to kill her sister.

Lady Whatever-- I said from the beginning that I would vote to legalize gay marriage, so I'm not really sure why you're arguing this with me.

[csc]

I believe that all religions are good and should be respected. My opinion is that if you have a religion you really believe and have faith in, you should stick to it. BUT, if you find out that your religion has an opinion you find morally wrong or cruel, you shouldn't try and agree with it, just because your priest\father\rabbi\minister or whatever said so. In a nutshell, I think you shouldn't change your personal beliefs because of some religion.

With that said, I'd like to point out that I am a christian and am completely pro-gay marriage.

[ghostie]

I agree with Countess Violet.

[Charles Vane]

I think there have been fifty seven gay marriage threads since I joined 667.

I really only came in here because I saw this was the latest discussion and I remembered when we had a bunch of polls where there was a random option that said "gay marriage". That was fun.

Here's something related! " It’s very dear to me, the issue of gay marriage. Or as I like to call it: “Marriage.” You know, because I had lunch this afternoon, not gay lunch. I parked my car; I didn’t gay park it." Liz Feldman

[csc]

That's an awesome quote, Pandora.

[thenarrator]

I could go off on a tangent in regards to this too.

I am against gay marriage. Plain and simply put.
Why? God says it's wrong. God says homosexuality is wrong.

Now let me be honest, I have nothing against the person who's a homsexual.
I am just like them: a sinful human being. This is why I'm not against the person.

But, as Christ is my lord, I'm therefore against homosexuality.

rebecca.
My understanding is that with Roman's 1:26-27, is that it doesn't mean that he gave them over from the standpoint of as if I were to give someone over to the police or to my great aunt Sophie or so (who doesn't exist. I just picked a random name).
In other words, not in putting them there.

But more rather that he stepped back and let them go that way.

I myself don't know why he did that, but, as so, I have to trust God too.
I have to trust that he knows what he's doing.