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Post by Dante on Jan 14, 2013 8:27:01 GMT -5
Definitely the best thing about TVV is the change in format at the end. It's as if every previous book has been building up to this - giving us rigid expectations only to tear them down, for both the readers and the characters.
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Post by Hermes on Jan 14, 2013 10:29:21 GMT -5
. So, to recap the quagmires epic journey TAA ; At Prufprock prep, kidnapped, smuggled OUT of the city dressed as dogs ( I think) TEE ; Somehow back IN the city, only for fernald to drive them OUT of the city. TVV ; ‘And he hid us for a while in the tower room of his terrible house’ So they go back IN the city, only to be taken OUT and hidden in fowl fountain in VFD. Its like a fricking hokey-cokey As I understand it: In TAA they are smuggled into the city dressed as dogs. (PP is some way from the city.) In TEE Olaf plans to smuggle them out of the city, but is prevented: although Fernald gets then away from Veblen Hall, the authorities are alerted before they leave the city. After that they are hidden at Olaf's house. |
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Post by MisterM on Jan 15, 2013 3:26:49 GMT -5
BOOK EIGHT
--Chapter One--
Ah, poor crow, left behind by the rest of the murder.
Now, unless I missed something from the end of book seven, surely the Baudelaires would head towards the city if not directly to it. So how did the Baudelaires miss the bus stop (or, in fact not get the bus. ( Although, I suppose they have no money).)
The Baudelaires are said to be not ‘to far’ from people who ‘want to harm them’ - Hoe is this true exactly? Surely Olaf would be far away by now, and even if he was nearby, he seems to be pretty set up at THH By the time the Baudelaires reach there.
On a side note, the Baudelaires are no longer olafs main interest
THH - Getting the Snicket file. The operation plot comes into the story later.
TCC - Getting information with Madam Lulu. The Baudelaires just happen to be in the trunk
TSS - Burn down VFD Headquarters.
TGG - I don’t really know/remember what olafs doing in this book. Going for a deep sea dive?
TPP - Burn down Hotel Denouement..
And, The End doesn’t really count
The story of the telegram the Baudelaires sent is a tricky one. There are several options / theories
1. The Telegram was sent, but Mr Poe was unable to help
2. The Telegram was sent, but Mr Poe ignored it on his sisters instructions \(See TUA)
3. The Telegram sending failed, possibly due to the telephone liens being cut?
Please let me know what you think
--Chapter Two--
Volunteers Fighting Disease is a pretty good diversion. At this point in the story, it could actually be the VFD, so well done to mr handler
The Shopkeeper is nice, but almost cartoonishly villainous when trying to catch the Baudelaires
How big is this store?
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Post by Anka on Jan 15, 2013 3:38:20 GMT -5
Chapter 1:
- We have already talked about ut but: this is the first book that starts differently, without Mr. Poe and without a guardian, but with the Baudelaires running away from people who accuse them of crimes. They are alone now.
- „Sunny had recently learned to walk“, but when? There are moments in the first books when she seems to be able to walk, and moments when she's not. Sunny's development is generally confusing
Chapter 2:
- The Volunteers Fighting Disease immediately think the Baudelaires belong to them. They don't seem to know each other very well, which makes it even more hilarious that they call each other brothers and sisters.
- It's interesting that Beatrice met Esmé the first time at an afternoon tea. So probably they didn't know each other when they were children, though it's still possible that they were children when they went to the afternoon tea.
Chapter 3:
- Lemony is reminded of a tune that his father used to sing when he did the dishes, I wonder if he means his real father or something like the fake parents in WCTBATH
- The man says that the Baudelaires need a Library of Records, that makes him look more related to the „real“ VFD than he probably is.
- Here again Violet thinks about their father and Klaus about their mother.
- Do normal hospitals have a Library of Records?
Chapter 4:
- I wonder if the symbols the Baudelaires don't recognize are interesting. But probably not.
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Post by Dante on Jan 15, 2013 10:49:59 GMT -5
Now, unless I missed something from the end of book seven, surely the Baudelaires would head towards the city if not directly to it. So how did the Baudelaires miss the bus stop (or, in fact not get the bus. ( Although, I suppose they have no money).) They're on the run from the law. Getting the bus, going to the city, or doing anything that involves getting near people would hardly be in their best interests. However, it is true that there is a slight disparity between the end of TVV - where they decide to escape from the village before the mob captures and burns them - and the beginning of THH, where they don't seem interested in being contacted by the police either. Probably they're on a more independent quest. |
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Post by Ellie Spinelli on Jan 15, 2013 15:39:55 GMT -5
Chapter 1 - „Sunny had recently learned to walk“, but when? There are moments in the first books when she seems to be able to walk, and moments when she's not. Sunny's development is generally confusing ~Although Sunny has had walking moments before, I think we can take this reference to mean the end of TVV. There Snicket made direct mention of her "first" steps and as THH picks up it says she can walk - I'm sure whatever distance was covered between V.F.D. and Last Chance General Store was enough that although she may not walk well yet, the story cannot go back to her crawling. The story of the telegram the Baudelaires sent is a tricky one. There are several options / theories 1. The Telegram was sent, but Mr Poe was unable to help 2. The Telegram was sent, but Mr Poe ignored it on his sisters instructions \(See TUA) 3. The Telegram sending failed, possibly due to the telephone liens being cut? Please let me know what you think ~The UA provides the telegram the Baudelaires sent to Poe, his letter states that he deliberately chose not to believe(/read?) them; therefore, we can conclude that only the second theory is applicable. (Side note: Given the second telegram in the UA, it's probable that the caution against telegrams didn't actually come from Eleanora.) Chapter 2 ~Milt said that he usually doesn't expect the newspaper until after the van arrives. Of course it would be the day the news comes first. Also, how does he know what will be in the newspaper before it comes? Chapter 3 ~"The Cathedral of the Alleged Virgin." If you weren't sure if she was a virgin, why would you dedicate a cathedral to her? I find that name quite amusing. - Do normal hospitals have a Library of Records? ~Hospitals keep patient records on file, which can go back years and take up a lot of space (before converting to electronic files). I think the Library of Records here is a play on that concept; not just on the extensiveness but also on the filing system itself - thimble stored under P for protection of the thumb (ch 5) - it is not unheard of for a place with such a heavy load of paperwork to lose or misplace files. There is also the commentary on the hospital's priority being paperwork rather than healing people (ch4), quite suggestive of today's practices. Chapter 5 ~When I read about Sunny using her teeth to chop up the fruit it dawned on me that they no longer have a way to brush their teeth. Their breath is going to be pretty rank. Not to mention Sunny is picking locks with her teeth. This situation is going to concern me for the rest of the reread. Stand by for updates. ~The page with the list of dates every twelve weeks - is that something that has been identified already and the Baudelaires just haven't recognized it yet or are we waiting to learn what that is? Chapter 6 ~I understand it to be that the Baudelaires have to ask Hal to unlock the drawers for them to file the papers in. So why don't they just make up a reason to open the drawers they think the Snicket file is in? "Excuse me, Hal, could you open the Fin de Siecle to Fissle drawer? I need to put this paper on the thimble under 'Fine object to place on one's thumb in the event one does not take pleasure in having said thumb pierced by sharp objects.'” Or "Hal, I would like to file this document on the cuttlefish under 'Sneaky marine animal that evades capture by ejecting ominous clouds of black ink,' so could you unlock the Snack to Snifter cabinet please?" Come on Baudelaires, get creative! |
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Post by Anka on Jan 15, 2013 16:39:40 GMT -5
Chapter 2Also, how does he know what will be in the newspaper before it comes? That's a good question. Maybe there was something about them in the news the day before, but I think there was not enough time between Jacques' death and that morning Chapter 3 ~"The Cathedral of the Alleged Virgin." If you weren't sure if she was a virgin, why would you dedicate a cathedral to her? I find that name quite amusing. I think he's making fun of the people who go to church (or practice any religion) without really believing what their religion is about. Chapter 5 ~When I read about Sunny using her teeth to chop up the fruit it dawned on me that they no longer have a way to brush their teeth. Their breath is going to be pretty rank. Not to mention Sunny is picking locks with her teeth. This situation is going to concern me for the rest of the reread. Stand by for updates. They also don't have more clothes than they are wearing. ~The page with the list of dates every twelve weeks - is that something that has been identified already and the Baudelaires just haven't recognized it yet or are we waiting to learn what that is? I didn't even remember that, although THH is one of the books I know best. I don't think we or the Baudelaires know what it is about, it could just be the dates of different fires? |
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Post by Ellie Spinelli on Jan 15, 2013 19:53:16 GMT -5
I agree with you on the religion bit Anka. The showering (or lack thereof) will also continue to be an issue. Unless someone brings up a reference for the real significance of the dates, I am going to assume they are the dates of fires Olaf and/or the wicked side of VFD has set. If that is the case, then there are many more families torn apart and lives destroyed than I had imagined.
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Post by Charlie on Jan 15, 2013 19:54:13 GMT -5
Chapter 3 ~"The Cathedral of the Alleged Virgin." If you weren't sure if she was a virgin, why would you dedicate a cathedral to her? I find that name quite amusing. Is it not a play on the Virgin Mary, whom many have accused of committing adultery, and blaming it on God? |
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Post by Christmas Chief on Jan 15, 2013 20:39:46 GMT -5
I'm not entirely caught up with this thread, but it may be worth noting that Handler received some criticism for the "Alleged virgin" remark: Handler: In one of my books there’s a place mentioned called “The Cathedral of the Alleged Virgin.” I’m Jewish, and all of Christianity is inherently funny to me. So, sometimes, I lose a little perspective on making jokes about that kind of thing. It just never occurred to me that anyone, anywhere would ever think that detail was anything but funny. But, of course, I got a couple of angry letters.
One of them said, “I’m a Catholic and for me, the Virgin Mary is like my mother. I feel like you’ve just insulted my mother.” She couldn’t have said anything that would make me feel less apologetic than that. First of all, when people make fun of my mom it’s hilarious. I wanted to respond, “I would love to make fun of your mother—too bad I don’t know her, so I wouldn’t know what to peg it on.” Now, if she’d said “It was like you were making of fun of the movie Moon Over Miami,” I might have agreed—that movie’s the Holy Grail. But her mother? Anyone’s mother is such a fertile field, for God’s sake.
Sedaris: Did you write back to her?
Handler: I developed a standard response, because I did get about five letters. I just said, “‘Alleged’ just means someone has claimed she’s not a virgin. It doesn’t mean she’s not a virgin, it just means some people have ‘alleged’ she’s not.”
Sedaris: That probably didn’t save you with her, I’ll bet.
Handler: Probably not. |
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Post by Ellie Spinelli on Jan 15, 2013 21:22:21 GMT -5
Thanks for that reference Sherry Ann! It is nice getting Handler's viewpoint on the matter. I am a devout Christian but I found it funny. Then again, I see it as a parody of those who practice without believing or without knowing what their beliefs are really about, not an attack on my personal beliefs. In the end, it is just a joke, take it or leave it. It may have been in poor taste for many readers (or only five) but like he said, it's only alleged.
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Post by MisterM on Jan 16, 2013 4:01:01 GMT -5
~The UA provides the telegram the Baudelaires sent to Poe, his letter states that he deliberately chose not to believe(/read?) them; Ah, I should have made it more clear. In TSS, Quigley makes mention the telegram never arrived, surely negating this? I Think this is one of those plot holes we might never answer [ Well! Of the many things people have mentioned over the years (lack of sleep, food, water, etc...), this is a first! I Wonder what Quigley thought... [/quote] Hm, I see your point, but it could be a bit risky... They could have suggested it though! |
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Post by Dante on Jan 16, 2013 4:25:55 GMT -5
~The page with the list of dates every twelve weeks - is that something that has been identified already and the Baudelaires just haven't recognized it yet or are we waiting to learn what that is? We don't know what it is and never find out. Given the regularity of the dates and the nature of the Quagmires' investigations, it would seem likely to have something to do with V.F.D.'s meetings - although it might also indicate fires, which could suggest that the other side of the schism have been attacking whenever the volunteers try to meet and which would be possible to learn about through the Quagmires' research. |
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Post by Tryina Denouement on Jan 16, 2013 4:28:56 GMT -5
~The page with the list of dates every twelve weeks - is that something that has been identified already and the Baudelaires just haven't recognized it yet or are we waiting to learn what that is? We don't know what it is and never find out. Given the regularity of the dates and the nature of the Quagmires' investigations, it would seem likely to have something to do with V.F.D.'s meetings - although it might also indicate fires, which could suggest that the other side of the schism have been attacking whenever the volunteers try to meet and which would be possible to learn about through the Quagmires' research. Probably it's a calendar of unfortunate events? |
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Post by Ellie Spinelli on Jan 16, 2013 8:43:46 GMT -5
~The UA provides the telegram the Baudelaires sent to Poe, his letter states that he deliberately chose not to believe(/read?) them; Ah, I should have made it more clear. In TSS, Quigley makes mention the telegram never arrived, surely negating this? I Think this is one of those plot holes we might never answer Oh, okay, now I understand where you're coming from. Now I'd have to say I fall into that category of conspiracy theorists that believe Quigley may not be telling the whole truth, although I'd prefer to think he was doing it because he believed it was in the Baudelaire's best interests. |
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