The 667 Dark Avenue Re-Read 2012

[bandit]

May 7, 2013 1:55:14 GMT -5 Dante said:

Should he? Do we know that they've ever met before? Probably the sinister duo are the most secretive of the villains of ASoUE; nobody even knows that they're the judges of the High Court, after all.

Also, doesn't Fernald basically admit to Fiona in TGG that he joined Olaf's troupe because he doesn't know what else to do? It's implied that he isn't really aware of the gravity of Olaf's "occupation", so he definitely wouldn't know about the various members in the world of villains.

[MisterM]

I'd say they were in mourning, but putting white powder on your face isn't nearly as big a mourning tradition as, say, wearing black.

Although who is to say they don't?

Should he? Do we know that they've ever met before? Probably the sinister duo are the most secretive of the villains of ASoUE; nobody even knows that they're the judges of the High Court, after all.

Okay, I stand corrected.

-- Chapter Eight --

This chapter is the beggining of many returning elements from past books over these next few books.

At the time I first read/heard this book I had no idea what the story of TRR was, so it was interesting to hear about it in this way.

And so, really this is the begging of the end of the series. After this chapter, really, we get no more answers about anything. And its from this point on that the series is at its strongest.

Esme was in charge of the quagmires financial affairs - er, wasn’t Mr Poe?

The File Jacques went to Monty’s house for… could it be.. The snicker file???

I always thought finding out what the letters stood fro would solve the mystery. But im as mystified as I ever was - The Baudelaires are never really pleased with the answers they get, are they? You’re parents helped fight fires. God klaus.

What is the schism? I feel the Sugar Bowl might be the start of it, hence why everyone is so keen to get it?

He wanted to find you before ti was too late - too late for what? Olaf to capture them? I feel he had something to tell the Baudelaires, from his manner in TVV/

Learning about Monty’s house burning down, whilst in the ashes of another fire… god this series can be depressing sometimes!

Quigley must be good if he could deduce that Olaf was disguised a receptionist simply from a nameplate.

Quigley runs into the snow scouts, and Bruce, who had also been at uncle monty’s house. That had never occurred to me before.

How could Duncan and Isadora learn Quigley is alive?

Chapter Nine

Is Fernald a former snow scout?

Quigley obviously fancies violet here. ‘I’ve heard about her marvellous inventions’ Oh, Quigley you charmer…

The Baudelaire inventor and saying ;Beatrice’ - oh, you tease.

[Dante]

May 8, 2013 14:58:21 GMT -5 MisterM said:

Esme was in charge of the quagmires financial affairs - er, wasn’t Mr Poe?

In TEE, he states that his promotion to being in charge of "Orphan Affairs" brings the Quagmires' "situation" under his handling, but that's not necessarily the same as managing their estate. I think the connection to Esmé is clearly a retcon, but I don't think the flaws in the idea are necessarily insurmountable. It's never directly contradicted, it's only the circumstantial evidence that's problematic.

What is the schism? I feel the Sugar Bowl might be the start of it, hence why everyone is so keen to get it?

Chapter One of The End states that Klaus believes the schism had something to do with a sugar bowl - but it's hard to see why he would think that, as there's never any evidence in the entire series connecting the two.

Quigley must be good if he could deduce that Olaf was disguised a receptionist simply from a nameplate.

He doesn't quite say that he deduced Olaf's entire plot from the nameplate - I'm sure Jacques's notes and the gossip of the townsfolk must have filled him in.

How could Duncan and Isadora learn Quigley is alive?

Message-carrying birds? Or while floating around the land they just spy him from high above? One may assume that there are ways and means.

Is Fernald a former snow scout?

That would be fun, but I think the reference is probably more of a joke, linking an improbable person to the Snow Scout pledge - and in a sense just making the reference is funny, as we're used to the pledge being very goofy, and it's a funny line to hear coming out of Fernald, who has committed numerous acts of villainy.

[Hermes]

May 8, 2013 14:58:21 GMT -5 MisterM said:

And so, really this is the begging of the end of the series. After this chapter, really, we get no more answers about anything. And its from this point on that the series is at its strongest.

Well, I think it is after this point that we find out who Beatrice is. And the significance of VFD is clarified more as we go along. However, I agree with you that there is a major shift here; up to now we have been dealing largely with puzzles which are going to be solved (What does VFD stand for? Why is there a secret passage linking 667 with the Baudelaire mansion? What is the significance of the tattoo?), after this we move into deeper mysteries, like the sugar bowl, now moving to centre state, and the Great Unknown.

The File Jacques went to Monty’s house for… could it be.. The snicker file???

Well, J. was helping to compile the Snicket File, so I doubt it.

I always thought finding out what the letters stood fro would solve the mystery. But im as mystified as I ever was

Yes, we now know what it stands for (and we've come a long way from TAA, where, lest we forget, we didn't know it was an organisation) but not exactly what it means. This will become clearer over the next two books, with the Captain and then Kit filling us in.

Is Fernald a former snow scout?

I think so. There are several clues, one of which is that he calls Bruce 'Uncle Bruce' . If the Snow Scouts are linked - even indirectly - with VFD, and F was in VFD in his youth, it's not unlikely. (I think Esme was one too.)

The Baudelaire inventor and saying ;Beatrice’ - oh, you tease.

Oh yes, oh yes. If you read carefully it's clear that the Baudelaire inventor is Violet, but it's meant to make you do a double-take, I'm sure.

[MisterM]

Okay, so we gave finally reached the end of book ten. I hoep start book 11 next week, but im currently unable to get hold of a copy….

Anyway a lot of notes on the last four chapters once I’ve replied to a few things…

Chapter One of The End states that Klaus believes the schism had something to do with a sugar bowl - but it's hard to see why he would think that, as there's never any evidence in the entire series connecting the two

Ah, as I remember that now. But is there not some indication by Kit in TPP?

I'm sure Jacques's notes and the gossip of the townsfolk must have filled him in.

Hm… In retrospect it would be good if Jaques’ notes where the snicket file. Could that be possible?

That would be fun, but I think the reference is probably more of a joke, linking an improbable person to the Snow Scout pledge - and in a sense just making the reference is funny, as we're used to the pledge being very goofy, and it's a funny line to hear coming out of Fernald, who has committed numerous acts of villainy.

I think ti would have been ever better if that line had come from olaf.

However, I agree with you that there is a major shift here; up to now we have been dealing largely with puzzles which are going to be solved (What does VFD stand for? Why is there a secret passage linking 667 with the Baudelaire mansion? What is the significance of the tattoo?), after this we move into deeper mysteries, like the sugar bowl, now moving to centre state, and the Great Unknown.

Also, ti occurs to me that since the intorduction of VFD we have had a new mystery each book
5 - VFD
6 - The Secret Passage
7 - Jaques
8 - The Snicket File
9 - Survivor of Fire (Okay, so maybe that can go with the last book, but we clarificatuon)
10 - The Sugar Bowl
11 - The Great Unkown
I cant think of anything for book 12, so the pattern really ends there

Well, J. was helping to compile the Snicket File, so I doubt it

.

Ah, right.

--Chapter Ten--

When Quigley recalls Isadora’s couplet, I realized how saddening it is the Baudelaires never meet the quagmires again….

The we reach, of course, the famous private moment between violet and Quigley. Did they do anything more than kiss? Of course not.
Plus I don’t think there’s much room on that ledge to do anything…

There are some moments of lemony’s life he will never write down - I wonder if this will come up during ATWQ…..

-- Chapter Eleven --

Who is JS? I think probably Jacques. News probably never reached the headquarters of his death. I mean, assuming the message was left thw day before, it would have only been a few days since his death Unless my timelie is incorrect, Jacques would have been dead for 6 days at the time the message was written

That’s convenient - Klaus himself says it cant be a coincidence that the poem was found, which, I suppose means someone is following the Baudelaires? I don’t know what to make of this…More on this later

More on the VFDialouge when we reach TPP….

Yay! More sleepless nights for the Baudelaires!

--Chapters 12 & 13--

Where does this eye suit that Olaf wears come from? Do VFD have there own tailor?

How does olaf not recognise the VFDevices?

The World is Quiet Here - Four tiny words?

The Baudelaire parents wearing black, so, I assume a funeral? But… who?

It was only on my previous re-read of this book that I realised the song is probably the Little Snicket Lad. This fact makes my spine tingle…

Also, The Baudelaires (Well, Violet, Klaus, and Quigley) are, for the first time, called volunteers by Snicket in his narration. This is, really, the trilogy of books where the Baudelaires are volunteers.
1, 2, 3 - Orphans
4, 5, 6 - Searching for VFDs meaning (Okay, so, ignore book 4)
7, 8, 9 - On the run, and the Snicket File
10, 11, 12 - Volunteers, The Sugar Bowl, and heading to Hotel Denoument

You volunteers are never brave enough to do something for the greater good - Well, of course, from the volunteers point of view it isn’t for the greater good, its for the lesser evil. Some volunteers, however, are brave enough to do things for ‘the’ greater good, but whenever they do, it all just goes wrong….

Being well-read won’t help you in the world - which is, of course, the view held by most of the ‘bad’ side of VFD.

So, Ike was a volunteer. Totally forget this was confirmed!

And also, the Baudelaires will never meet the volunteer who thre wthe sugar bowl into the stricken stream. This makes me think, maybe, that the volunteer was Lemony Snicket himself. However, that would ruin the taxi driver theory (which Is pretty much definitely lemony). Although maybe it different. If you don’t know who you’re talking to, can you have actually met them?

The Sinister Duo, and, in fact, the entire troupe seem to lose their cool when the Baudelaires arrive. Of course, with nobody knowing who they are, it is, of course more sinister. The Sinister Duo would have no idea who they are, and I think that would scare anyone.

The Baudelaires also stand up for each other quite well here. And Olaf always treats them as more than just three ‘brats’ after this, I think. Because he now knows how intelligent they really are. ‘you’re just like your parents’, etc.

We know where the sugar bowl is - DUN DUN DUN!!! When I heard this for the first time, I actually thought she had figured it out. Saying that the sugar bowl is missing from the tea set, of course, made me believe the sugar bowl from that tea set was THE sugar bowl.

Esme is more keen to get the sugar bowl than the fortune. I assume because she is, of course, rich, not as vengeance-hungry on the Baudelaire parents, and the sugar bowl used to belong to her personally, apparently

We wouldn’t have argued all day long… After a few hours— - I wish I could read that argument

One reptile they don’t have, of course, is ink. More on this when we reach the end, of course

Greatest triumph? Catching a load of children In a net? Really?

“They’ll either be recruited, or they’ll be our prisoners. But one thing is for certain—we’ll burn down every single one of their parents’ homes.” - A load of fortunes there then! And, of course, they will have nowhere to go but TO the villains. I feel, maybe the bad side fo VFD started with just one man beginning fires and slowly growing his evil force this way,

Its also interesting that its this late into the book before the Baudelaires (well, violet and Klaus anyway) meet olaf

As soon as Olaf realises it shte Baudelaires, he dismisses they could have knowledge of the sugar bowls whereabouts immediately? They have clearly been in the headquarters, olaf, they could have found some important information….

And now one of my favourite moments of the entire series - the white faced women’s departure. We learn, in a way, how Olaf recruits his troupe. He burns down their families homes and accepts them with welcoming arms, encouraging heir freakish nature so they will feel even more cut of from the world. The White Faced Women are the most unfreakish of the troupe, but im sure olaf convinced them to put more and more powder on their faces. We also git a hint as to how in the dark he keeps his troupe about things, The WFW only realise the truth about how their sibling died after hearing the sinter duos plans from the families fo the snow scouts, and that is what causes them to leave.
But the reason why this is such an amazing moment? Its just a few small lines, a few moments of characterization, and they are gone. Fernalds story in TGG is, in my opinion, to much. We hear to much, and we see to much, but with the WFW, we learn just enough to make us care about them, and then they are gone.

Hugo (I think) mentions the food could have used some dill. Very fresh?

Also it is clever how in this book we learn both pledges to both sides of VFD.

Edit : Okay, we, knew the VFD pledge from TUA, but the Baudelaires learn it in this book, okay?

Also, if Fernald is a former snow could might explain when he stupidly joins in the pledge /.dance. etc

‘you’ll be like the daughter we never had’ ‘or something’ - Father of the year

They’ll burn your parents’ house down. I have the evidence right here, in my commonplace book - can Quigley have this evidence? I expct hes probably lying to help convince Carmelita away

Thin - Oh, Esme….

We’re not outnumbered at all… There are four of us, and only three of you.” - Well, I think olaf meant in terms of the general situation, but that is true. You completely forget how few people are on the mountain top until it is pointed out here.

The paragraph summing up the basis of VFD and what it is does is good, and could really be used as a synopsis for the series

The Baudelaires have a head start, apparently… more on this later

Also, more on Hotel Denouement and its location when we get there

This is definitely the most action-movie moment in the series. The Baudelaires potentially falling into the pit they dug themselves…..

I assume Quigley wanted violet to meet him at the hotel, ad he was waving his commonplace book…

Lemony arrives far to late - I don’t think this means as part of his research, but that he arrived at the headquarters to recover the VFDialouge.

Are the WFW dead? I think so, but imp not keen on speculating, because, like the mystery of the great unknown, I don’t want to know what happens.

Lemony ahs one of Quigley’s maps, which, it think, supports my theory of what happens to Quigley. Its quite a long theory, and could also work as an actual fic, but that’s not going to stop me from mapping out what I think happens with lemony, Quigley, kit, and the quagmires over the course of the next three books…

And here we have, I think, confirmation that the fire survivor is Quigley, when lemony confirms Bertrand is dead. Lemony ahs been saying Beatrice is dead fro 10 books, and he says he Bertrand’s is dead. So, they’re dead.

[Dante]

May 14, 2013 6:54:39 GMT -5 MisterM said:

Ah, as I remember that now. But is there not some indication by Kit in TPP?

I'm pretty sure the sugar bowl and the schism are never connected in the text, but we'll see when we get there.

Hm… In retrospect it would be good if Jaques’ notes where the snicket file. Could that be possible?

It's not quite clear how Jacques's notes could have gotten from Paltryville to Heimlich Hospital to the V.F.D. headquarters, where the sinister duo retrieved the Snicket File, so I suspect not.

There are some moments of lemony’s life he will never write down - I wonder if this will come up during ATWQ…..

Good idea; I hope so.

That’s convenient - Klaus himself says it cant be a coincidence that the poem was found, which, I suppose means someone is following the Baudelaires? I don’t know what to make of this…More on this later

I don't think this ever really adds up.

More on the VFDialouge when we reach TPP….

Ah, you spotted that, did you? Well done.

Where does this eye suit that Olaf wears come from? Do VFD have there own tailor?

I don't see why not! But maybe Olaf's troupe were forced to make it for him, as I recall they made Fowl Fountain.

How does olaf not recognise the VFDevices?

Developed after the schism, perhaps.

The Baudelaire parents wearing black, so, I assume a funeral? But… who?

Lemony's was what I always thought, but I'm not so sure that figures. I don't think it really matters, though.

It was only on my previous re-read of this book that I realised the song is probably the Little Snicket Lad.

Yes, I agree.

We know where the sugar bowl is - DUN DUN DUN!!! When I heard this for the first time, I actually thought she had figured it out. Saying that the sugar bowl is missing from the tea set, of course, made me believe the sugar bowl from that tea set was THE sugar bowl.

Everything suggests that it was. We gradually piece together this bit of backstory from TEE onwards of Beatrice having stolen a sugar bowl from Esmé, and it makes as much sense as any for it to be the one from this tea set.

But the reason why this is such an amazing moment? Its just a few small lines, a few moments of characterization, and they are gone. Fernalds story in TGG is, in my opinion, to much. We hear to much, and we see to much, but with the WFW, we learn just enough to make us care about them, and then they are gone.

This is part of what makes these sequences so strong for me, too. Less is more; a great deal can be said in not so many words. And then there is great poignancy added to these sequences by what happens afterwards, or doesn't - the white-faced women never appear again, Fernald - well, we'll get to that. I think this is something Snicket is taking better advantage of in ATWQ. ?1 seemed far longer than its page length (and even that had a reduced word count compared to ASoUE).

We’re not outnumbered at all… There are four of us, and only three of you.” - Well, I think olaf meant in terms of the general situation, but that is true. You completely forget how few people are on the mountain top until it is pointed out here.

One of my favourite lines of the book.

The Baudelaires have a head start, apparently… more on this later

And how it turns out to basically not be true, I presume.

[Hermes]

May 14, 2013 9:51:50 GMT -5 Dante said:

It's not quite clear how Jacques's notes could have gotten from Paltryville to Heimlich Hospital to the V.F.D. headquarters, where the sinister duo retrieved the Snicket File, so I suspect not.

Well, we are explicitly told that the Snicket File was compiled by the Snicket siblings, so it looks plausible that Jacques' notes are part of it, at least. It's true this is hard to fit with Kit saying she hasn't seen her brothers for a long time, and also with Hal introducing it as the file on the Snicket Fires, but there it is. One of the siblings may have dropped it off at HH while driving past, I suppose. I don't think, by the way, that it was ever at VFD headquarters - that's a plausible theory when the Sinister Duo first produce it, but given what we later find out about them it's quite credible that they took it directly from HH 'for the official investigation'.

(VFDevices) Developed after the schism, perhaps.

I think it's meant to show that VFD is still working on developing new ideas.

Lemony's was what I always thought, but I'm not so sure that figures. I don't think it really matters, though.

In which case it must be a death of his different either from that reported before Violet was born, and from that reported at the beginning of TUA (by which time he was already known as the historian of the Baudelaires). I wonder how many deaths he has had.

[Dante]

May 16, 2013 5:55:13 GMT -5 Hermes said:

I don't think, by the way, that it was ever at VFD headquarters - that's a plausible theory when the Sinister Duo first produce it, but given what we later find out about them it's quite credible that they took it directly from HH 'for the official investigation'.

The sinister duo personally being the ones who removed the Snicket File from Heimlich Hospital seems unlikely. They refer to the thirteenth page as missing because the Baudelaires stole it from Heimlich Hospital, but only the thirteenth page had been left behind; if the sinister duo had taken the file, the Baudelaires having stolen the remaining page would be far less relevant than the fact that the sinister duo missed that page in the first place. In fact, it would almost be implying that the Baudelaires stole that one page while the rest of the file was still there, and they had left it. The sinister duo could be lying to save face, but Sunny's standing right in front of them and doesn't seem to take offence.

However, the sinister duo may have ordered the Snicket File to be removed, and their catspaws didn't check that they had all the pages. Given that the sinister duo know there's a page missing, I suspect they'd have been more careful if they'd made the visit personally, whether in checking that the thirteen pages they knew of were all accounted for, or in checking the contents page to find out how many pages they should have before they left. Either way, presumably Hal wrote up the note in the file saying that the pages had been removed, as that note specifically refers to thirteen pages, but he's the only person I can imagine knowing how many pages there are but missing one anyway. The scenario I'm drawing in my head is that some official investigators visit the hospital and ask for the Snicket File, Hal pulls out twelve pages and doesn't notice he missed one because of his poor eyesight, and the investigators, who don't know what the file comprises, assume they have it all and leave to give it to their masters. Reportage on the fire at the hospital and Hal's evidence probably permitted the sinister duo to deduce that the Baudelaires had come by the remaining page.

I think what's important, though, is one circumstantial piece of evidence that the sinister duo only acquired the Snicket File very recently in TSS: They haven't read it yet. The woman with hair but no beard says "We'll all read it together" and "It contains secrets we all ought to know." Those don't strike me as things she'd say if she'd already read it. The same goes for her behaviour after the lead villains leave Olaf's tent after having read the file; "We have a lot of scheming to do." They act as if it's provided new information which they're only just processing, rather than it having just updated Olaf and Esmé on what the sinister duo knew days ago. I think the strength of their comments points more towards them having read the Snicket File for the first time that day in that tent. And I don't see them having acquired the Snicket File in early THH or before and having not read it for days.

It's all very ambiguous, which is likely because Handler didn't actually think the background here was very important; the behind-the-scenes movements of the Snicket File are less significant than its appearances on-screen. The sinister duo having picked up the file at V.F.D. headquarters seems the most straightforward way of accounting for where they got it and why they haven't yet read it. Not that the above scenario isn't equally sufficient and in some ways more satisfying - it just doesn't seem to match the text.

[MisterM]

TGG notes tomorrow.....

Edit : After i;ve posted this, lol.

May 14, 2013 9:51:50 GMT -5 Dante said:

I'm pretty sure the sugar bowl and the schism are never connected in the text, but we'll see when we get there.

I glanced a look at the chapter, and I couldn’t find anything. We’ll just have to wait and see

I don't think this ever really adds up.

Well, hopefully I will try to soon….

Ah, you spotted that, did you? Well done.

Aw, shucks. But yet again, this ties in with something…

I don't see why not! But maybe Olaf's troupe were forced to make it for him, as I recall they made Fowl Fountain.

In record time as well, too! But looking at the second chapter of TPP, there are a lot of VFD specific items. I’d never realised that before…..

Developed after the schism, perhaps.

But surely olaf hasn’t been away from VFD since the schism? I think he should have run into them at some point (plus it contradicts some stuf that will happen in my fic)

I think this is something Snicket is taking better advantage of in ATWQ. ?1

Fittiing then, for a book about questions….

And how it turns out to basically not be true, I presume.

Yes

May 16, 2013 5:55:13 GMT -5 Hermes said:

I don’t think, by the way, that it was ever at VFD headquarters - that's a plausible theory when the Sinister Duo first produce it, but given what we later find out about them it's quite credible that they took it directly from HH 'for the official investigation'.

Well, I agree with this..

And….now I’ve read dantes stuff, and I don’t.

[MisterM]

Chapter One

Okay, so, I’m like, super late starting this. But I’m getting quicker and stuff. Hopefully we will finish in time for ?2 I think so, but I expect I will get behind again in the summer.

The Last book introduced a sense of questions remaining unanswered, and this book continues that them buy introducing a physical question that still remains unknown

‘Olaf’ said he’d be right behind us’ - Only, as had been stated a few seconds ago, his tyres are punctured.
My brain is urging me to write a fan fiction about what happened to Quigley, and I’ve actually begun work on it, in a minor form. My idea for how this issue is resolved is included….hm. I will save it for there, I think.

The few scraps of newspaper blowing about are from lulu’s tent, I assume? But would could the information be that would help the Baudelaires? The location of Hotel Denoument would be of great help, so I’ll go with that

The eye of some terrible sea creature - the great unkown? The bombinating beast? Nothing at all and I’m just guessing?

I have trouble picturing that periscope….

Chapter Two

When I picked up my copy of TGG today, I noticed for the first time that you can see the quequeg in the bottom right hand corner/

I don’t seem to have many notes for this chapter and probably won’t for much of this book…. I really dislike this book… there are so many elements which I think came of poorly, and could have been done better, which individually aren’t to bad, but together make a whole heap of bad.

What did olaf say?

Widdershens talking about disrespecting the alphabet reminds me of Josephine… fitting really, as she is mentioned a few liens later.

The personal philosophy thing echoes TCC…

“We’ve been attacked by villains and leeches, by sharks and realtors, by pirates and angry salmon!”
Leeches - Lachrymose leeches? I suppose when they in Lake lachrymose
Realtors - There is a fic by Dante about the whole realtor subplot im yet to read, and I should do that soon…
Pirates - the FFP? This is a subplot that really does seem to be dropped by the time TPP comes around

…. As does the captains use of ‘the belly of the best’

A certain taxi driver - is this the same taxi driver as in TPP? If this is lemony, and lemony did throw the sugar bowl from the headquarters, then this would make sense. He would hope for widdershins to retrieve the sugar bowl from the stream he tossed it into.

[bandit]

May 28, 2013 12:21:54 GMT -5 MisterM said:

The eye of some terrible sea creature - the great unkown? The bombinating beast? Nothing at all and I’m just guessing?

LS could have been talking about an octopus for all we know, but I think it's just supposed to be a nod to the Great Unknown/the theme of sea creatures and not an actual clue. (By the way, I just noticed that the inside cover of WCTBATH is a pattern of octopi. Are they ever even mentioned in the book?)

I have trouble picturing that periscope….

Me too; although I don't dislike it as much as you seem to, I think one of the biggest problems with TGG is that it doesn't deal with imagery very well. I could never imagine what the grotto looked like at all, because it's not really clarified how a cave at the end of the sea is even possible. Also, Olaf's submarine is toughy, and I am almost ashamed to admit that every time I read TGG I replace it in my head with The Penguin's submarine in the 1966 Batman movie.

When I picked up my copy of TGG today, I noticed for the first time that you can see the quequeg in the bottom right hand corner/

Can you? My copy doesn't have anything.

“We’ve been attacked by villains and leeches, by sharks and realtors, by pirates and angry salmon!”

Fun fact about realtors, and this also relates to TWW-- "realtor" is actually a trademarked word meaning a member of the National Association of Realtors. Anyone not a member would be called a real estate agent. So technically, I guess that's the equivalent of ASoUE having another brand name like Kleenex or Popsicle.

A certain taxi driver - is this the same taxi driver as in TPP? If this is lemony, and lemony did throw the sugar bowl from the headquarters, then this would make sense.

It may be the same taxi driver, but wasn't Lemony just the passenger in the taxi? He gives directions for the driver to follow Kit and the Baudelaires, but the one driving is never revealed.

[MisterM]

May 29, 2013 18:22:41 GMT -5 bandit said:

I could never imagine what the grotto looked like at all, because it's not really clarified how a cave at the end of the sea is even possible. Also, Olaf's submarine is toughy, and I am almost ashamed to admit that every time I read TGG I replace it in my head with The Penguin's submarine in the 1966 Batman movie.

I think the lack of a full page illsutration for either of the submarines doesn’t help, to be honest, but that is a very fine point.

Can you? My copy doesn't have anything.

Ah, well I have the british edition, and the cover is slightly different, I believe.

Fun fact about realtors, and this also relates to TWW-- "realtor" is actually a trademarked word meaning a member of the National Association of Realtors.

That is a fun fact!

It may be the same taxi driver, but wasn't Lemony just the passenger in the taxi? He gives directions for the driver to follow Kit and the Baudelaires, but the one driving is never revealed.

More on this when we reach book 12

--Chapter Three--

How did Phil come into contact with a shark?

Running with my theory here - is lemony ending th VFDispatches?

How does Fiona now about the orphans shack?

How can they be looking for the sugar bowl for a month? My thinking was the sugar bowl was hidden at the headquarters for a while until the fire… I suppose its plausible that widdershins doesn’t know where the sugar bowl is but… hm. I don’t know.

[Hermes]

May 29, 2013 18:22:41 GMT -5 bandit said:

(By the way, I just noticed that the inside cover of WCTBATH is a pattern of octopi. Are they ever even mentioned in the book?)

Yes - they are kept in caves where ink is extracted from them.

It may be the same taxi driver, but wasn't Lemony just the passenger in the taxi? He gives directions for the driver to follow Kit and the Baudelaires, but the one driving is never revealed.

You might think so from the way he first tells the story, but he doesn't actually say it was him; and later it's revealed that the passenger was Justice Strauss. So I think it's likely that Lemony was the driver; also, very probably, the taxi driver in TRR and TWW. It seems unlikely that this is him, though, because the Captain knows Lemony and might be expected to recongsise him. Unless he was very cunningly disguised, I suppose.

[MisterM]

--Chapter’s Four and Five--

I am not an expert on submarines, but the whole thing does sound very unsafe and unstable….

I like widdershins use of sleeping with the fishes, which made me chuckle

‘The volunteers lost track of him a long time ago, along with Hector and the other Quagmire triplets. - This is interesting, as the other quagmire triplet’ are…with a volunteer, we can assume, unless hector is somehow separated from Isadora and Duncan, which I doubt very much.

And so we reach the question mark. This is my favourite element of, quite possibly thw hole series. In the books we have really no indication of what it is or what it does. My basic theory is that it is…death, in some form. However I don’t want to spoil my fic to much by going into detail. However…as for what it actually is, submarine or creature…. I think that’s better left to speculation. I do hope that in the series, however, we do not learn any more about it. I would rather (like with the contents of the sugar bowl) not know. In fact I would quite like not to even know what the bombinating beast statue does, but Im more ready to accept we will learn that.

Of course, the question mark terrifies not only the good guys, but the bad guys. Simply because it is…unknown, and anything unknown is scary.

How did Olaf get to the sea so quickly…..

Madam DiLustro - I believe ive heard the theory that she is Madame lulu in disguise, and I see no reason why not.

Widdershins suggestion of violet marrying fernald made me laugh.

You certainly have had a harrowing journey - which is the same phrase lemony uses to describe the events of book 10 in his dear reader letter.

Okay, so I’d completely forgotten the whole salmon thing. I knew there was something about VFD training them, but id forgotten the exact details.

Okay, this is fascinating. I had forgotten the Café Salmonella stuff as well.

The royal gardens fire is mentioned. How is this connected to the quietude?

“I thought I’d never live to see your mycological studies be put to good use,” and I’m sorry to say he was right.” - Hm, I don’t think this means widdershins necessarily dies, just that he will never see fiona put those skills to good use. My theory on what happened to widdershins after his dissapearance will come up here (and in my fic. Yes, that again. Sorry to keep mentioning it)

And now the medusoid mycelium, an elemnt of the series I rather dislike. I find it rather….annoying. I can’t put my finger on exactly what it is I dislike about it. I think the way its used as a plot device doesn’t help. However I do like its use in the end, to be fair.

Widdershens speech is quite rousing, actually.

And the Baudelaires actually get a decent-ish sleep for once!

[Dante]

Jun 7, 2013 3:44:58 GMT -5 MisterM said:

‘The volunteers lost track of him a long time ago, along with Hector and the other Quagmire triplets. - This is interesting, as the other quagmire triplet’ are…with a volunteer, we can assume, unless hector is somehow separated from Isadora and Duncan, which I doubt very much.

Remember that Hector is included in that number of people who V.F.D. lost track of. The situation isn't that Duncan and Isadora are separated from Hector, but that Hector has no way of contacting the organisation, nor they him.

And so we reach the question mark. This is my favourite element of, quite possibly thw hole series. In the books we have really no indication of what it is or what it does. My basic theory is that it is…death, in some form. However I don’t want to spoil my fic to much by going into detail. However…as for what it actually is, submarine or creature…. I think that’s better left to speculation. I do hope that in the series, however, we do not learn any more about it. I would rather (like with the contents of the sugar bowl) not know. In fact I would quite like not to even know what the bombinating beast statue does, but Im more ready to accept we will learn that.

Of course, the question mark terrifies not only the good guys, but the bad guys. Simply because it is…unknown, and anything unknown is scary.

In TGG, the question mark definitely symbolises the Unknown at its broadest, and it's in The End that that takes on connotations of death, the ultimate (or Great) Unknown. It is mystery incarnate. To ever find out what it is would be an enormously point-missing contradiction. I wouldn't worry about the Bombinating Beast; it doesn't have the same quality of standing in for the Unknown, and I'd say there's zero chance of it doing anything fantastic. Its purpose will be firmly practical. But as for the question mark, it stands for everything you don't know - no, it is everything you don't and cannot know. And you're right to point out that that's why people fear it, particularly the incurious.

How did Olaf get to the sea so quickly…..

How long did he have between the end of TSS and his appearance in TGG? I think it's only a few hours. There's really no good way of accounting for this one - actually, I'm inclined to suggest that there was probably an earlier draft in which he didn't show up until his appearance in Chapter Nine, but in the editing it was argued that he needed to assert himself earlier.

Madam DiLustro - I believe ive heard the theory that she is Madame lulu in disguise, and I see no reason why not.

Because she already has one alias, so why would she need another similar-sounding one?

Widdershins suggestion of violet marrying fernald made me laugh.

I like to think of this as an incredibly oblique callback to TBB and Violet marrying Olaf - and indeed some of Fernald's comments on that back then. "Yes, boss, I know she's yours." I think it's a really subtle piece of foreshadowing of Fernald's identity.

“I thought I’d never live to see your mycological studies be put to good use,” and I’m sorry to say he was right.” - Hm, I don’t think this means widdershins necessarily dies, just that he will never see fiona put those skills to good use. My theory on what happened to widdershins after his dissapearance will come up here (and in my fic. Yes, that again. Sorry to keep mentioning it)

There's a similarly ambiguous quotation in TPP which some people argue, or argued, directed towards a particular character's death, but I agree with you here - Widdershins simply never saw Fiona's studies put to good use, it's not that he died soon after that. (Although I suppose that depends on your take on what happens when the Great Unknown scoops them all up.)