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Post by Dante on Oct 6, 2013 2:21:07 GMT -5
The fourth chapter could also be divided, i think, though maybe not as cleanly (although wasn't that hwo it was shown in the preview). I will take note if i see any more evidence of moments where a chapter could be split in two.... was it always to be 13 chapters? I remember an interview with Handler in which he mentioned that he now unconsciously writes his stories to fit thirteen chapters, although I agree that ?1 could probably have been more if he wanted. But given that ASoUE firmly established the number of chapters to be significant, there wasn't really any reason to have more or less. Theodora's just being a bit self-centred. She thinks that because Mrs. Sallis called V.F.D. then there was no reason for her to call the police as well, but that doesn't actually answer the question - why did she make that choice? There's a line somewhere - I don't remember where, but I don't actually have time to reread, so there it is - that makes it sound as if she's not that old, maybe even in her late twenties. Probably the person who sent Mr. Mallahan a telegram inquiring after the statue. It's not stated where it's from, but it's implied to have been Killdeer Fields, and as I recall it was sent six months before, which was also how long ago Ellington's father disappeared. What's interesting is that the description of the town at the start of Chapter Four mentions, in addition to the pen-shaped tower, both a grocer and a diner - that is, the locations that appear in the first three chapters of ?2. Handler was setting things up well in advance. What are statues outside of city halls usually of? What kind of thing would you normally expect? Make a few suggestions and perhaps you'll get close to the truth.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 6, 2013 16:46:06 GMT -5
Chapter 4.
As Mister M says, this is also a double episode. I don't think DH ever planned the books as more than thirteen chapters, but this structure must mean that sometimes more than one event must be fitted into a chapter.
I find the library part of this chapter much more interesting than the Lost Arms part.
The description of the town reminds me of things I have read about Detroit, another place that is in decline because of the loss of its main industry.
I wonder if Handler has read A Prayer for Owen Meany, which makes a lot of the theme of lost arms.
'a tall man with no hat was talking on the phone' - it seems that hats are so common in Lemony's world that this is worth commenting on - and that they are even worn indoors.
Is the painting of the little girl holding a dog with a bandaged paw a real painting? Is it significant?
'I used to be that young man' - there is some ambiguity about whether L wrote this account shortly after the events or later in life, but this certainly points to the latter.
Qwerty's title of sub-librarian obviously recalls Dewey, the sub-sub-librarian, though he is using the title for different reasons. Might Dewey have been Qwerty's apprentice?
Qwerty is a very striking figure. He clearly knowns more than he is letting on; he tries very hard to draw Lemony's attention to the inter-library loan possibility (and it's interesting that Kit is also working in a library). He also tries to draw Lemony's attention to books about zoology and oceanography, suggesting that they may answer the question that burns like fire in his kind. Because they offer some clue to the Bombinating Beast? Or something to do with octopi? One wonders whether he is also deliberately drawing L's attention to Sally Murphy. Is he, then, the watcher? Or has he some other secret?
Stew repeats the first thing Lemony says, but apart from that I don't see any connection between him and Nero, as some have speculated.
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Post by Dante on Oct 7, 2013 1:40:54 GMT -5
Well, I knew the Rabelais quote, though of course that's in Latin: I've never heard 'bombinating' as an English word. A point I forgot: Why has Handler chosen this quite esoteric word with a quite specific meaning? I'm sure it's not just to sound quaint, like the name of some old gimcrack. A buzzing noise or similar must be of some significance to either the purpose of the statue or the origin of the myth. Incidentally, that reminds me of an editing error in the book. Moxie calls it an old gimcrack, but as I recall it then later on Snicket quotes her as having said something less specific than that. I think Handler came across the word "gimcrack" and inserted it later, and the editing didn't follow it through. I find the library part of this chapter much more interesting than the Lost Arms part. Ironically, the original four-chapter preview etext released last year by the likes of Amazon cut off right after the Lost Arms part, excluding the more interesting half of Chapter Four - although the Lost Arms is important set-up. I have a theory that Prosper Lost may be quite important later, but I'll leave that for now. Google turns up nothing, but it strikes me as the sort of thing Handler is probably taking from memory - an inexplicably odd and somewhat sentimental picture on the wall of a cheap hotel room, and not something anyone would conceivably want on their wall. The use of "sub-librarian" certainly points to Dewey, but it's important to remember that it is a real title. I think it's just an allusion. Incidentally, I think there probably isn't a non-sub-librarian, and that Qwerty's only a sub- because the town can't afford to pay someone a librarian's fee. Note also that Qwerty is evasive about when he came to the town. ...To be honest, I think he's definitely the watcher, one hundred percent. The only question is how he would do his watching, and I suspect that he spends his spare time at a high window with a pair of binoculars.
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Oct 7, 2013 5:07:23 GMT -5
Chapter 4:
- „The Lost Arms“ = „Zum Weißen Torso“. Okay, that's something completely different now. It means something like „The White Torso“, not many people actually know what a torso is. I have no idea why that's the name. Prosper Lost is called Prosper Weiß (White). Somehow that black and white thing is interesting. Oh wow. Prosper Lost can not only be a name, but also kind of a sentence, as in „Prosper lost something“. „Prosper weiß“ also means „Prosper knows“. Probably not important or meaning anything, but interesting. - Dashiell Querty = Dashiell Qwertz, just because on a German keyboard or typewriter the z is where the y is on an English one. - „Stain'd Myths“ = „Schwarze Mythen“, „Black Myths“. I think I don't have to say that anymore, because Stain'd just becomes Schwarz all the time. But for all the things the form of the word „schwarz“ is the one that means that it's referring to the word after it, like in this case „Schwarze“. It's like in actually black myths, not just „Schwarz“ without the e like in the name of the town. Later when it's about the Stain'd witches, it's even just written „schwarze Hexen“, without a capital letter at the beginning (Hexen is with a capital letter because nouns always start with a capital letter in German), so it just means black witches and not Black witches, which is fitting because of the ink in their veins. - „Fourier Branch“ = „Fourier-Filiale“. That's cool because FF is VFD. - Lemony says the author of the book is „Zefix“ instead of „Sorry“. Zefix doesn't really mean anything. That's stupid, because even if they can't really use anything like sorry they could just have chosen a normal name then instead of some random thing like Zefix.
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Post by Dante on Oct 7, 2013 6:34:21 GMT -5
- „The Lost Arms“ = „Zum Weißen Torso“. Okay, that's something completely different now. It means something like „The White Torso“, not many people actually know what a torso is. I have no idea why that's the name. Prosper Lost is called Prosper Weiß (White). Somehow that black and white thing is interesting. Oh wow. Prosper Lost can not only be a name, but also kind of a sentence, as in „Prosper lost something“. „Prosper weiß“ also means „Prosper knows“. Probably not important or meaning anything, but interesting. "Prosper Lost" is also a bit of a pun, I think, since "to prosper" means to perform well financially. If you think of the name as "Prosperity Lost," it's a little more obvious. The name is ironic, in other words. Curious that they flipped the name around a bit - it's much the same, but instead of referring to the missing elements of the body, they focus on the dismembered body itself. It's actually a more specific title. I wonder why they went with that? Oh, of course. It's a reference to the statue in the lobby... as may be the English name, at that, but in-universe I regard the establishment as being named after the proprietors' family, in the tradition of inns - it's "The Lost Arms" but it might as well be "The Smith Arms" or "The Qwerty Arms," see what I mean? But because their name is "Lost," the name becomes a pun as well. ..."Prosper knows," eh? I've been thinking the same thing. That's a curious decision. Oh, nice! How satisfying. That does seem bizarre. The translator's choices strike me as a little inconsistent - sometimes they're excellent, sometimes terrible, sometimes literal, sometimes creative, and without any obvious consistency. Maybe the translator thought that the request should sound less obviously like a communication, but since that's part of the joke...
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Post by Hermes on Oct 7, 2013 8:55:26 GMT -5
Chapter 4: - „The Lost Arms“ = „Zum Weißen Torso“. Okay, that's something completely different now. It means something like „The White Torso“, not many people actually know what a torso is. I have no idea why that's the name. Prosper Lost is called Prosper Weiß (White). Somehow that black and white thing is interesting. 'The white torso' presumably refers to the statue, the Venus de Milo, which is a torso, i.e. a body without limbs - and 'white' because of the pun on 'knows', and the contrast with 'black'. 'The Lost Arms' is a joke in English because 'The X Arms' is a regular pub name, referring in origin to a coat of arms, not to limbs. This joke wouldn't translate into German. I think that the translator may have a problem here, because while in English you can regularly use a place-name to denote things that come from that place - e.g. Chelsea buns - in German, if I remember rightly, you can't; you have to form an adjective - so 'Schwarze Hexen' wouldn't really mean 'witches from Schwarz'; it would have to be 'schwarzische Hexen' or something like that.
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Oct 7, 2013 10:59:12 GMT -5
- „Stain'd Myths“ = „Schwarze Mythen“, „Black Myths“. I think I don't have to say that anymore, because Stain'd just becomes Schwarz all the time. But for all the things the form of the word „schwarz“ is the one that means that it's referring to the word after it, like in this case „Schwarze“. It's like in actually black myths, not just „Schwarz“ without the e like in the name of the town. Later when it's about the Stain'd witches, it's even just written „schwarze Hexen“, without a capital letter at the beginning (Hexen is with a capital letter because nouns always start with a capital letter in German), so it just means black witches and not Black witches, which is fitting because of the ink in their veins.I think that the translator may have a problem here, because while in English you can regularly use a place-name to denote things that come from that place - e.g. Chelsea buns - in German, if I remember rightly, you can't; you have to form an adjective - so 'Schwarze Hexen' wouldn't really mean 'witches from Schwarz'; it would have to be 'schwarzische Hexen' or something like that. Yes, that's right. "Schwarz-Hexen" would have been possible though, because that could mean either witches from Schwarz or just witches that have something to do with the colour black.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Oct 7, 2013 14:03:39 GMT -5
Wasn't there a thread about this before the book was released? Personally i excepted it to be more than 13 chapters.
I'll keep a look out for that, then. Okay, this shows how long it was since i read this book, as i don't remember this.
I think it is real. it seems to specifically obscure to to be, given some of the literary allusions in this book.
That would be aweosme.
people have said he is the vfd observer, but i think that's to obvious.
CHAPTER FIVE
Root beer floats. I don’t think I need to mention anything else.
I really do the the mitchums are related to nero. Especially the use of the word ‘genius’ relating to stewie.
I think the butler is actin extremely suspiciously here. You can tell something inst riht already.
I think the reason for the taxi’s dents is somehow related to their fathers absence.
Could pip ad squeak really drive a car in that manner?
Pip and squeak are mys econd faovurite characters. Then thedora, then qwerty, then lemony himself. I don’t like ell into.
I have ever read Danny the chmpion fot he world, but I want to after that tip.
I hope to do two chapter a day for the next two days. By all eas feel free to read further than me, however.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 7, 2013 14:48:59 GMT -5
Chapter 5.
Two episodes again.
The root beer float reference, next to an allusion to L's associate, is another false clue to Beatrice.
The Mitchums. Well, yes, the Mitchums. I can't think of much to say about them, really. We should note, though, that they do know Qwerty, (and he knows Stew), so despite the mystery of how long he has been in town, he can't have arrived just this minute.
I don't understand Theodora's story about the seashells. Why should dust/sand on the shells show they belonged to the younger brother?
It's fairly clear already that the BB doesn't really belong to Mrs Sallis, and that she has hired Theodora to steal it, but apart from that the burglary plan looks quite a sensible one, I'd have thought - why in particular do you find it suspicious?
'a woman with a long fur stole' - is she relevant, or just a passing detail?
So Mister M, if Pip and Squeak are your second favourite, who is your favourite? But I like them too. Could they drive the car like that? Hard to say. Nancy Mitford has a story somewhere about how her younger sister, Deborah, as a child, used to drive her father's car, using a stick to move the pedals because she couldn't reach them with her feet. Compared with that P and S's method looks almost sensible.
'"Because I work the brakes" squeaked Squeak. "Of course" I said.' Ha! But why is the elder brother called Pip?
'I tried to think about the statue of the Bombinating Beast, but my mind wandered, first to the caves I had seen, where frightened octopi were giving up their ink...' I wonder if this relates to the endpapers, where the BB is hidden among octopi? Might that tell us where the statue will in the end be found (though clearly it's not there right now).
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Post by Dante on Oct 7, 2013 16:05:47 GMT -5
Wasn't there a thread about this before the book was released? Personally i excepted it to be more than 13 chapters. Could've gotten away with setting fourteen up as the new arc number, I suppose. Or, since it's a prequel, maybe twelve. I don't think he's good enough at what he does to be the observer. He'd have to have more or less failed at his eavesdropping class, and I doubt individuals like that get picked to be observers. I think obnoxious people are perhaps all a little bit alike. You kind of answer this conundrum in your next question... I think that the answer is a clear "no." Or at least that it took them a lot of practice. Incidentally, I suspect that there may be more to Pip and Squeak's absent father than meets the eye... certainly I'm not convinced that he's really sick. I don't understand Theodora's story about the seashells. Why should dust/sand on the shells show they belonged to the younger brother? I find this whole exchange a bit baffling, too, although presumably the sand is related to where the seashells were discovered. It might have made more sense if the dust/sand had been on the true collector's hands. Or maybe the false collector, showing that he'd more recently appropriated them? It's a strange one. Tough. It strikes me as the kind of clue Handler might plant which will turn out to be relevant quite some time in the future, when the woman with the fur stole returns and turns out to be relevant, but there's really no saying.
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Oct 8, 2013 14:44:05 GMT -5
'a woman with a long fur stole' - is she relevant, or just a passing detail? Nice coincidence: When I read this I first thought "What did she steal?" Chapter 5: - This is the first time I see a translation of „root beer float“, the word is in TE (Is is? Okay, I read it a few weeks ago, so I should know somehow, but I'm not sure), but I only read that in English. The German word is „Wurzelbier-Shake“ which is just a literal translation. It's not really special, but it was the first time I read the word so it was interesting for me. - The taxi: - they say they „would also work for an apple and an egg“ which means something like „not much money“ or „no money at all and not much of something else“. And when he is supposed to pay, Lemony asks if he could also give them a book tip. Since I read the English version I always wondered what they would do with the „tip“ pun because it doesn't work in German. - Pip and Squeak are called Boing and Quietsch. Quietsch is from the word „quietschen“ which means to squeak. Boing describes the sound of someone or something jumping.
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Post by Dante on Oct 8, 2013 16:28:42 GMT -5
A few cultural queries about your translation notes, Anka: Does the translation for "root beer float" exist outside of ATWQ, or did they have to invent it for the book? Likewise, in English, Pip and Squeak are a pun on the word "pipsqueak," which refers to a small (not necessarily literally so) person, so is there an equivalent joke to that in Boing and Quietsch's names?
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Post by thedoctororwell on Oct 9, 2013 13:29:04 GMT -5
The french translation of WCTBATH isn't out yet, but I have a regular correspondance with Rose-Marie Vassallo (the official french translator who worked on Asoue with Nathan Publishing House). She is actually already working on WDYSHL (Egmont kindly got her an advance copy) so we should have a release date soon concerning the french translation.
Amongst other things, she says she ended up translating "Stain'd by the sea" by "Salencres-sur-mer." "Salencres" is a contraction of "sales encres." So it re-translates as something like : "dirty inks on the sea." Eh ! Not bad. She says she was adamant that it should start with a S, because the Bombinating Beast is shaped like the "S" letter and she suspects it's not a coincidence. Planning ahead !
Apparently she'll use different variations on "salencres" to translate the rest of the stuff... For example "The Stain'd Lighthouse" will become "Le Phare Salencrier."
As for root beer floats, well, it's a quintessential american delicacy, so there's no official translation. "Root beer" is "racinette" though, so if you wanted to have a root beer float in France, you'd have to ask a "racinette à la vanille" (root beer with vanilla, I guess). French Asoue fans sometimes use the term "bière flottée," but it's made up. In fact there's no mention of root beer floats in the french version of Asoue, because Nathan chose not to translate TBL.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 9, 2013 14:19:09 GMT -5
The french translation of WCTBATH isn't out yet, but I have a regular correspondance with Rose-Marie Vassallo (the official french translator who worked on Asoue with Nathan Publishing House). Wow! Are root beer floats a real thing? I had always supposed that it was a Snicket invention. But is there not a mention of root beer floats in The End?
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Post by bandit on Oct 9, 2013 14:24:28 GMT -5
Are root beer floats a real thing? I had always supposed that it was a Snicket invention. Even Daniel Handler couldn't create something so delicious.
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