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Post by Dante on Oct 9, 2013 14:25:19 GMT -5
Thank you for the French translation insight, thedoctororwell! Vassallo made a good call on the S-shape, I think; it's one of the connections to the newspaper The Stain'd Lighthouse, for one thing, and that needs to follow back to the name of the town. As for root beer floats, I just checked my electronic copy, and root beer floats are mentioned at the start of Chapters Six and Twelve of The End, yes. Of course, they could simply have been replaced with something else, since root beer floats only have resonance in the series due to their appearance in TBL.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Oct 10, 2013 16:38:12 GMT -5
Soryr, ive been very busy. i wil post notes on the next 5 chapters tomorrow.
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Post by Dante on Oct 11, 2013 1:58:58 GMT -5
I'll look forward to it. There's a lot to cover, but I think we'll just about make it before next Tuesday.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Oct 11, 2013 6:18:38 GMT -5
CHAPTER SIX
I think… the sender of the telegram may turn to be someone other than hangfire. I also have a theory about how this ties in to the bombinating beast but I will save this for chapter 12. If I forget do remind me!
Where has all the ink gone? Are the stian'd witches real or somehow involved?
‘adults ever tell children anything’ ‘children ever tel adults anything either’ - I love this line
‘the children … and the adults of this world are in entirely separate boats and only drift ear each other when we need a ride fro someone’ - this makes me think of the chapter 14 dedication
‘and books on how to raise a daughter all by yourself’ - okay, 3 2 1 awwwwwwwwww. Poor Mr. Mallahan.
CHAPTER SEVEN
How did Ellington know lemony would fall in that specific tree?
No books, and the the drinking of tea… somehow those two things made me not trust Ellington from the off.
What is the bombiantin beast? I favor dabtes map/lighthouse/town theory, personally.
Left killdeer fields after the flood - did the sea leave stian'd by the sea and went to kill deer fields
CHAPTER EIGHT
I find it a little hard to believe that lemony couldnt tell he just had coffe with him instead fo the statue.
Other than that to much to say for this chapter…
CHAPTER NINE
I find the screamin to be particularly chilling. When i read the book the firs time, I thought the screaming was being played on a loop from somewhere.
I love how snicket says he should be frightened late and that he will probably spend most of his later life beins cared, which we know he will be.
Also, on ftrst read this was the point at which i actually started to enjoy this book - just as we near the end
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Oct 11, 2013 7:33:01 GMT -5
Thank you for the French translation insight, thedoctororwell! Vassallo made a good call on the S-shape, I think; it's one of the connections to the newspaper The Stain'd Lighthouse, for one thing, and that needs to follow back to the name of the town. As for root beer floats, I just checked my electronic copy, and root beer floats are mentioned at the start of Chapters Six and Twelve of The End, yes. Of course, they could simply have been replaced with something else, since root beer floats only have resonance in the series due to their appearance in TBL. Oh wow, I just realised that Schwarz-aus-dem-Meer starts with an S too
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Post by Dante on Oct 11, 2013 7:37:43 GMT -5
I think… the sender of the telegram may turn to be someone other than hangfire. I also have a theory about how this ties in to the bombinating beast but I will save this for chapter 12. If I forget do remind me! Well, it's suggested later that the telegram came from Killdeer Fields and it was sent around the time Ellington's father disappeared. So, Ellington's father would be a good candidate for the telegram sender. Of course, this can be true alongside the theory that Hangfire sent the telegram. ...I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of dwindling supplies. The syringe method of extracting ink, as well as the close confines in which the octopi are kept, don't seem conducive to their health or breeding. So the octopi are dying off, and as they do, the ink supply is shrinking. The ink isn't literally disappearing; that's a metaphor. It's just running out. Mr. Mallahan is quietly an honestly tragic figure. I'm pretty sure, if you look at everything said about him throughout the book, that he's suffering from depression. Either Lemony was knocked out for a short while, giving Ellington time to catch up, or it's just a plot contrivance and we shouldn't worry about it. More impossible things have happened in the Averse. I think it's interesting that Ellington's tastes - she drinks coffee, listens to music, and doesn't read herself, even if she likes it when her father does - aren't exactly evil. They're more... sophisticated, if you like. Or faux-sophisticated. She reminds me a little of a non-evil, less fashion-obsessed Esmé Squalor; she presents herself as being mature and capable, and she's very fashionable in a kind of 1920s way; I can imagine her smoking cigarettes in a long holder if she were older. I wonder if a sort of dichotomy is being drawn between a quieter, scholarly, literary society of the kind Snicket keeps, and the world of the city, socialising, and parties. It does feel a bit hard on Ellington, though. There's nothing wrong or immoral with any of her tastes, and although she doesn't appear to be very well-read, she's better-informed about music. So I suspect that perhaps we aren't meant to take Lemony's reasons to distrust her entirely seriously (we can distrust her based on her actions, not her interests); rather, there's more of a suggestion that the two are from different worlds and different traditions, and can't entirely empathise with one another. It's a theory that I should probably revise, but I do think Lemony's suggestion that a candle could be placed in it, and the inference from that that the light cast from it would reveal something, to be the only really plausible suggestion I've heard for its function. Its shape is clearly important. But I also think this because there's a Handler interview out there in which he says that Lemony solves the mystery the moment he holds the statue in his hands, and the candle thing is the only new intuition he's had about it. It's a compelling theory to me, but the two might just be parallels, or inverses of each other (which would reinforce the idea of Lemony and Ellington as opposites, as in opposite sides of the same coin). I'd take that as a plot device, too. Ellington pulls off a far more difficult stunt in Chapter Twelve, after all. It's a necessary explanation for why the younger Lemony Snicket can be so much braver and more resourceful than the adult counterpart we know, who has gone so far as to describe himself as cowardly, I recall. Dramatically, the ATWQ volumes have a really odd structure. They don't spend the whole book winding up the tension only to release it at the denouement; there can be a separate dramatic climax quite a way from the end, as seen here, without an obvious final showdown. I enjoy it, but it's unusual.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 12, 2013 14:01:06 GMT -5
Chapter 6.
If the telegram is unsigned, how did the sender expect Mr Mallahan to reply? (This may have something to do with Mister M's - oh, gosh - theory.)
'they're welcome to that old thing'. It seems clear that the burglary plot is a bit excessive, given that the BB is in fact very easy to get hold of. If Hangfire resorted to it just because his telegram wasn't answered, he seems to be going to rather unnecessary effort. More on this later.
Ah, a recipe. Lemony's interest in food in this story is really quite striking. Should we add it to the recipe thread?
Yes, I, like Mister M, was struck by the 'boats that pass' line and how it recalls the dedication of Ch. 14.
'Wade Academy' - because you have to wade to get to it? (There is a place in Kent called 'St Nicholas at Wade' of which this was once true, though there, too, the sea has dried up.) Or is it an allusion to someone in the noir tradition?
What on earth is the Octopus Council, to which Moxie refers in such an offhand way?
Moxie's explanation of the masks makes more sense than Theodora's, but I'm still not totally convinced it's true.
The missing third chair presumably belonged to Mrs Mallahan.
'in the middle of that shape was a faint light' - this sounds rather as if the Mitchums' flashlight is inside the window, but presumably that's not what's meant - their car is in front of the window, which therefore frames the light.
Chapter 7.
The central chapter of the book, and introducing someone who is in a way the central character.
Ellington is dressed in black, as, we should note, Theodora is at this moment. Which might lead us to think E was about to commit a burglary - something that, if I remember, is confirmed later. Her other clothes, especially the red wig, suggest a disguise kit. And the two small French hats link up with what we will later find out about Cleo.
'an old-fashioned record-player' - so such things are not the norm in Snicketland. One can never tell what the state of technology there is.
'People our age don't usually drink coffee' - but then, do they usually drink tea? (Only in VFD families, perhaps. Sunny was drinking tea as an infant, if I remember rightly.) And should they drink root beer, given that the kind of root beer L prefers seems to be alcoholic?
I have no more ideas about the BB at the moment - though I suspect it may not be as important as people think.
We should note that DH has said that Ellington's father is a prisoner, and also, when describing her as a femme fatale, that she is indeed desperate to find her father, which suggests that her story is at least in outline true. It rather looks, by the way, as if Mr Feint was a journalist ('copies of articles that he had written') - the Mallahan and Feint families seem to be parallel in some ways.
Was the water from Stain'd moved to Killdeer Fields? Or was it the flood in Killdeer Fields that prompted the draining of Stain'd?
'Ignore the bell and you'll find out' - so it seems that the Mitchums have yet another theory about the bell, that it warns of the presence of the Bombinating Beast.
'Surprisingly, delivery around here is very fast'. Delivery is Very Fast. Does this tell us anything about Ellington? Or about Stain'd generally?
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Post by Dante on Oct 12, 2013 16:04:45 GMT -5
If the telegram is unsigned, how did the sender expect Mr Mallahan to reply? (This may have something to do with Mister M's - oh, gosh - theory.) Send one back to the Killdeer Fields telegrammatic office with instructions that the original sender can pick it up? Or are you suggesting that the sender didn't intend the offer seriously and was perhaps trying to provoke a reaction? I'm always prepared to overlook villains going to unnecessary effort in the Averse. But I think that probably quite a lot changed between that telegram being sent and the present events. It took me a while to get the "wade" pun, but it's a very noir-y name, too. I have a feeling I might already have dug up a possible relevant source... Googling "noir wade" eventually gets me this, for instance. A voluntary group that overlooks the environment in the valley and surrounding areas. ...That's the sort of thing I would assume, anyway. I thought he might have been an academic, myself, but there is a bit of a distinction - the Mallahans seem to have run The Stain'd Lighthouse, whereas Ellington's father was more a regular writer. I think it's more that it follows that, if the bell has to be rung to drive away the Bombinating Beast, then it must be out on the prowl on nights when the bell is rung... I remember Handler suggesting, in the Guardian webchat, that we might be right to be suspicious of whoever delivers the mail in Stain'd - although I'm not convinced we'll ever meet them.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 12, 2013 16:22:39 GMT -5
An academic - could be. A marine biologist, perhaps? But I'm guessing that in a small local paper like the Stain'd Lighthouse the editor does write articles as well.
And yes, I'm not convinced that getting the Bombinating Beast was really the writer's intention.
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Post by Charlie on Oct 13, 2013 3:56:08 GMT -5
First two chapters notes
--------------------- Could Walleye be Hal/ Heimlich Hospital Records perhaps?
Chapter 1. - What does the “L&S” Stand for on the side of the train in the illustration? - Okay, so in the first sentence, on rereading, it looks like the girl is Ellington, but what if it is in fact Moxie Mallahan. She’d be someone Lemony would think had nothing to do with it. And she was in possession of the BB statue. And she had a motive, saving the newspaper, and possibly extricating her father from depression by this - ‘I should have asked the question “Why would someone say something was stolen when it was never theirs to begin with?”. Following on from the Moxie theory above, it could have been both stolen and not yours to begin with. As in Moxie may have stolen it, yet it still doesn’t rightfully belong to Hangfire or Sally. If you know what I mean? - So from his sentence about the suit having hung in his closet for weeks, we know that at the academy or whatever, Snicket had a closet, and then stayed “weeks” after his graduation, before coming to the Hemlock. - The statement about Snicket’s “father” seems to suggest he doesn’t often wear a suit. Could this suggest some sort of untrustworthiness? And his “mother’s” nervousness suggests that she’s afraid of someone. For example one could posit that his “parents” are underlings of some cruel person (say Hangfire) who has told them to kidnap him or whatever (to stop him getting to Stain’d for example). Like, Lemony could have been told that some people were taking him covertly to his mission, and then these two could have collected him, before Theodora could get there. And Snicket having been told he’d have to pretend they were his mother and father went along with it. - If people wrote smutty fanfiction about ATWQ I’m sure this line would make its way into them “Practically nobody is nosy enough to take the napkin off a lap to see what is hidden there”. - “If I were a bathroom, where would I be” Man Lemony is smooth. Like seriously, he probably uses this one whenever he wants to charm the pants of off someone. - Maybe the man who comes out of the stall and asks Snicket if he’s alright is some sort of VFD agent or something. I mean, it’s pretty out of the ordinary to just ask some random person that. He could even be Hangfire if you think about it. And like when he says “Caught my eye in the mirror” I immediately think of the eye on his ankle. Like as in a second meaning for the phrase. - Clearly Snicket does not trust his “father” at this point. He says “a man with large shoulders could force open a door like that even if it were locked”. Is this why he didn’t drink his tea? At what point did he put the ladder here? Days, weeks, months ago? So then, how did he know he’d need to escape from that window in particular. Weird. Unless he happened to be on a crew of neophytes that put ladders in the bathrooms of tearooms. This seems unlikely - Theodora says “there’s been a change of plans, we’re in a great hurry”. Well, surely if, as it seems, the plans have changed to “let’s help Murphy Sallis”, then it’s not that urgent. This leads me to believe that Markson really isn’t as out of the loop as she acts, and that perhaps VFD has gotten wind of Hangfire’s plans or something. - First “Someplace Else” page 14.
Chapter Two. - I assume the “Right Librarian” in question, is the one from the Ramona books/ the Prufrock prep librarian. - Where were Snicket and Theodora meant to work? At a branch of a library perhaps? - Okay, so Beatrice once waded in the FountainVF, and Kit found a paper or something around the FVF. Is the FVF perhaps some sort of important spot to VFD. Also, is it anywhere near Mulcutary Money Management? - Notice Snicket says he acquired the measuring tape, rather than bought it. Perhaps he borrowed it off Beatrice. - Ok, so there exists a book on the history of the city’s underground sewer system. Is this a VFD book maybe? About like the tunnels or something. If so it would probably have a chapter with a VFD named title. Say, chapter five for example. - Lemony and Kit’s mission seems quite covert as if they were doing it removedly from their duties to VFD. Perhaps they are trying to get the item in order to solve some sort of family issue. Given that Jacques is not there, I suggest he is being held hostage or something. - Second “Someplace Else” Page 21 - It seems that the Sallis mansion is very similar to Josephine’s house. It has one huge window which overlooks a cliff (used to look over a body of water). Maybe it is the same mansion??? - I’m having trouble imagining what Markson’s hair looks like. The best I can imagine is like Merida from Brave’s. Anyone wanna draw their interpretation? - “We are meeting with him [their first client] for the first time”. Okay, so some man in the Sallis mansion actually called them for help, but then Hangfire eliminated them and put Sally their instead. Right? - Why does Markson ring the doorbell six times? Crack theory! The-World-Is-Qui-et-Here. OR. The-o-do-ra-Mark-son.
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Post by Dante on Oct 13, 2013 6:36:27 GMT -5
Could Walleye be Hal/ Heimlich Hospital Records perhaps? Could be anyone, really. Any particular reason to think why? ...Actually, I think TPP implies that Hal wasn't a volunteer. In-universe, no idea; out-of-universe, "Lemony & Seth," perhaps? To be fair, up until the later chapters of ?1, Lemony thought Ellington had nothing to do with the case - whereas Moxie seems to have everything to do with it, in that it's her statue, it belongs to her family, and it relates to her family's history. It'd be an interesting turnaround, but needs a little more justification, I think. The whole of the first chapter is full of implications that Snicket's "parents" are suspicious, but they only truly make sense in retrospect. His "mother" is afraid of being caught. His "father" is in disguise. Etcetera. What!! You're a responsible gentleman and you see an unaccompanied child looking ill in a bathroom. What do you do? On the other hand, this is an important case for Theodora, the lowest-ranked chaperone. If she pulls this one off, and with a new apprentice to boot, it would surely boost her standing. The case is unimportant in the grand scheme of things, or seems to be - but it could be her ticket to respect and fame. I seem to recall from TBB that the fountain is in the Finance District. Erosion could have undermined it, I suppose, but we're given no reason to think that the Sallis manor is on top of a high cliff, or that Josephine's house is a grand manor, or that the sea near Stain'd was ever or could ever be a lake. It's worth noting, though, that before we heard the name "Stain'd," it was speculated in some quarters that the book could be set in the town of Lake Lachrymose. The Chapter Six full-page illustration in ?1 shows a silhouette of her hair, and the three-chapter ?2 preview has an illustration showing Theodora's hair from the reverse. I think it's just huge and really messy. More likely, I think, is that Hangfire made the call, since he's the one calling the shots and Sally Murphy is just his underling, even if their disguises reverse their positions. But you could be right. Not a bad idea, although my suspicion is that she just wants attention and will do anything to get it. (Again, the start of Chapter Two of ?2 suggests that she's sensitive about this.)
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Oct 13, 2013 15:42:15 GMT -5
--Chapter Ten--
Who is leaving black cat coffee as snicket enters?
The package with initials… will this be important? Dr Flammarion clearly will be.
I actually used to hide important things in bookshelves,s and still do to this day, so when lemony hides the BB behind the book it made me very happy.
It is interesting that, unless im mistaken, we dont actually see mr mallahan since his initial appearance in chapter three.
CHAPTER ELEVEN
It is interesting, as dante has said before, that the only person to have used the name hanfire is Ellington. The fake-Ellington only says that after snicker has said it...
So…. Prospers small smile. I'm to sure ether to take this a something sinister or not.
Looked green ad sticky - now, what is this exactly? I think its something to do with the sea. The possibility of hanfire himself being some kind of living sea creature springs to mind here but, I think its just something hanfire put there to scare people. I don’t remember there being any further development on this alter in the book, but I will offer me sort-of theory here. Hanfire will turn out to be a not really sinister person at all, but more of a cowardly figure. Just someone who tries to act sinister when he really isn’t. The fact that he threatened to kill Theodora, then didn't, when there was really nothing to stop that from happening…
Most of the mail was now 9one - so, has dr Flammarion collected his package? Who delivers the mail I stain'd by the sea?
CHAPTER TWELVE
The illustration shows someone is waiting for Ellington - we can safely assume this is hanfire (?)
Of course, Ellington's story completely checks out. There is no reason not to trust her. I just think she knows something and isn't revealing it - I thinks she knows why hanfire took her father.
What exactly is it that lemony and kit are trying to obtain?
I think lemony simply not saying what item he is returning to the mallahan's wouldn't be enough to throw hanfire of he trail.
But now time for my theory - the real bombinatin beast staue (I.e - the one everyone is after) is not the one that was in the mallahans possesd at the start of the book. It was / is somewhere else this whole time. But where?….. Wait till the end of the book.
There are so many comments from other people on earleir chapters. I will try my best to try, but i fear i will not have time
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Post by Dante on Oct 13, 2013 15:59:04 GMT -5
Who is leaving black cat coffee as snicket enters? That's just in the illustration, isn't it? I've seen one website use that shadowy person as an illustration for Hangfire... I suspect not, myself, but who knows. It's a reasonable assumption; my guess was always I.I. (Ink Inc.). I think the green substance is there as a clue as to the sort of locales Hangfire spends time in. With that said, I'd be disappointed if he turned out to be not so sinister as he's made out to be... or rather, the opposite of sinister. He may not really have intended to murder Theodora, but he still tied her up and trashed her room. That was my assumption, but perhaps he's just watching?
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Post by Hermes on Oct 13, 2013 16:54:51 GMT -5
OK, ignoring recent comments until I catch up.
Chapter 8.
So, presumably the Mitchums stopped and searched Theodora, but released her when they found she didn't have the BB. (Which, given they knew she had an accomplice, might seem unwise.)
Qwerty yet again draws attention to zoological books. He also refers to the possibility of one thing being substituted for another, which is surely meant as a clue; but it's hard to see how he could know about it. Even if he is the postman, and delivered the BB to Black Cat Coffee, how does he know Lemony's package is meant to be the BB?
Our attention is drawn again to the mysterious metal sculpture. An obvious answer to the mystery would be that this is, again, the Bombinating Beast; but this seems too obvious, and not to justify it being treated as a mystery.
So, where is Ellignton? It would make sense for her to disappear once she has got the statue, but she hasn't yet got the statue: it is still waiting for here at Black Cat Coffee.
Is Lemony's theory about the phone call to Moxie right? The aim, he thinks, was to get the Mallahans out of the house so the caller (Hangfire) could steal the statue. That implies he doesn't know it has already gone, which in turn implies he doesn't know much about the events of the previous night.
Why would Ellington lie about the washerwoman?
Chapter 9.
By the way, does anyone think Moxie's clothes look like a school uniform? Though it's very odd that she wears her tie outside her sweater.
The bit about putting one's fear aside may indeed explain Lemony's cowardice in later life, but I wonder if it also illuminates the character of Josephine.
It's interesting that the basement has a window out of which water can flow and run away - I suppose because the house is on the side of a cliff.
Why, despite Hangfire (presumably) having tried to kill her, is Dame Sally so unwilling to give him away? It's interesting that she looks more frightened when L mentions an organisation.
'The plan was to get us to steal the Bombinating Beast and then have us caught by the Officers Mitchum. With us in jail and Sally Murphy drowned in the basement, the villain would have everything he wanted, including the statue.' This does not make sense. The original plan, that Theodora and L should steal the statue, bring it to the Sallis mansion and hand it over to the butler, did make sense, though it might be considered overkill. But if they are arrested, the villain will not get the statue; the Mitchums will have it, and will presumably return it to the Mallahans. This makes me wonder what Hangfire's real intention is, and whether the statue is his ultimate aim at all.
Afternoon seems to have come rather quickly.
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Post by Dante on Oct 14, 2013 1:55:18 GMT -5
So, presumably the Mitchums stopped and searched Theodora, but released her when they found she didn't have the BB. (Which, given they knew she had an accomplice, might seem unwise.) Well, the Mitchums aren't very good at what they do. I don't know if Qwerty's the mailman, though. I think that... for everything he knows, he can only be up to two of three things: Librarian, V.F.D. observer, mailman. Either of the latter two would supplement his knowledge as the former, but I don't think he could sustain all three roles. I suspect he probably just spends a lot of his free time, especially when the library is closed, up in a high garret with a pair of binoculars. She could be sneaking to the Black Cat rather than just walking there. Or, secure in her victory, is taking her time over breakfast. Or conceivably even hiding out in the attic rather than taking her time departing. It strikes me as very possible that Hangfire wanted Sally Murphy's screams to be heard. As for what happened the previous night - well, he knows that he hasn't got the Bombinating Beast, but events later suggest that he doesn't know where it is or hasn't been able to fully keep track of it. So at this point he's probably guessed that Snicket returned it to the lighthouse, maybe? Or he never intended to search it at all and the whole thing was a ploy to get Sally Murphy out of her predicament - scaring her, impressing his foes with an idea of his brutality, and not having to waste a life in the process. Two options. One is that she wanted to sound more authoritative in her cover story. The other is that she's a compulsive liar. There's not much evidence for the latter, but I find it quite an attractive idea. She said she had a family to think about, correct? And Ellington mentioned that Hangfire's modus operandi is to kidnap people to threaten others into doing his dirty work - as with her father and herself. Ellington can't betray Hangfire without risking her father - Murphy can't betray Hangfire without risking a family member of her own who is in Hangfire's power. As for the organisation - well, on the one hand, we know that she and Hangfire know about V.F.D., and perhaps she's been specifically told not to let on to them that anything really sinister is going on. I think the Mitchums are dopey enough that Hangfire, in whatever character he adopted for the occasion, could have walked away from the arrest with the Bombinating Beast in his possession.
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