Beatrice was alive many years after the fire at her house.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

This is part 7 of Strange Interpretation by Jean Lúcio from Brazil.

To understand this thread, it is necessary to read my previous threads.






1 - asoue.proboards.com/thread/35828/lemony-snickets-narration-culturally-different
   ;    2 - asoue.proboards.com/thread/35834/lemony-dialogues-events



3 - asoue.proboards.com/thread/35835/little-chronology-theory
   ;   4 -
asoue.proboards.com/thread/35843/daniel-handler-duplicates-events-confuse
 


5 - asoue.proboards.com/thread/35845/great-hiatus-theory-enigma
   ;   6 - asoue.proboards.com/thread/35847/letter-lemony-sent-real


If you have understood the Great Hiatus theory well, you will understand why I believe so much that Beatrice survived for many years after the burning of her house.



It is important to remember some important facts about the letter of R. The letter indicates that Lemony was captured that night of the Masked Ball to which the letter refers. In the letter it is written:

"You took a terrible chance in contacting me, but I'm glad you did. I am so sorry that I was unable to prevent, or least delay, your CAPTURE at my masked ball that evening, and I have been worried sick ALL THESE YEARS THAT YOU WERE DEAD, despite rumors of your activities spreading through the network of loyal members . "

Remember that what started the Great Hiatus was the capture of Lemony in this Masked Ball. This capture of Lemony occurred after he had published the books TBB, TRR and TWW.



Please note the following:

"I can not, however, help you answer the question YOU WROTE ME ON THAT GUM WRAPPER." That was the LAST PUBLIC EVENT the members of the organization dared attend together ... Mr. Snicket, everything you kept in my home is gone. BULLFIGHTING COSTUME IS GONE ... Everything in that guest room is gone, and all the things in the guest room next door BEATRICE, OF COURSE, IS FAR PAST COMPLAINING ABOUT LOST POSSESSIONS - THE VERY REASON, I AM CERTAIN, THAT YOU HAVE DEDICATED YOUR LIFE RESEARCHING THE LIVES OF THOSE THREE POOR CHILDREN ... "

Beatrice was in that Masked Ball that happened after the publication of books 1, 2 and 3. As it was explained, When the book TRR was published, it had been years (in the plural) that the main events recorded in the TRR book had already happened. Thus, Beatrice was fully alive years after the fire at her house. According to the letter, Beatrice stayed in the guest room next to the room where Lemony stayed. It is interesting that the pamphlet "13 shocking secrets" says:



Secret 10: "Lemony Snicket was disguised as a bullfighter when he was captured."



If R was talking about a Masked Ball that happened more than 15 years before the Beatrice house fire, the letter would not make any sense.

In the first place, this would mean that the ball that took place 15 or more years before the mansion would have been the last until the day R wrote the letter, and since then R would have been in doubt whether Lemony was alive or dead until the day he saw arrive the manuscript of the book 4. But, proof that Lemony would be alive would be the publication for the Great Public of the books TBB, TRR and TWW. According to Lemony, when he wrote the book TRR there was no doubt that he was alive or dead, as he attended dinners, such as Madame d'Lustro's dinner.

Similarly, when Lemony wrote TWW, he had not yet been captured, for he was still in his house, in his room. He wrote:

" I wish I had the power to go back and tell them that they were wrong. But of course, I cannot. I am not on top of the hill, overlooking Lake Lachrymose , on that gloomy morning. I am sitting in my room, in the middle of the night, writing down this story and looking out my window at the graveyard behind my home."

In addition, according to chapter 9 of the UA, there was at least one masked ball after the events recorded in TRR. In a letter to R, Lemony states in Sebald Code that he will go to the Masked Ball of the Duchess of Winnipeg. In the same letter, Lemony states that his enemies are searching for Unty Monty's reptiles. Notice what is written in this letter:

"Your Royal Duchessness,

The bell of regret, I'm sorry to say, must ring. ATTENDING your Masked Ball is impossible. Though I'd love to attend YOUR Masked Ball, my enemies are unlikely to cancel their plans - MASKED Ball, perhaps, or a Regular Ball or another kind of BALL - of finding and capturing me. Deep, deep, deep, deep regret IS what I feel for refusing your invitation, but it's too DANGEROUS. They're searching furiously for the survivors of Dr. Montgomery's collection, BUT imagine how furiously they'll search for me. So I'LL run. I'll hide. I'll run to hiding places. I'll do everything except BE at your Masked Ball, even though I'd love to be THERE.

Maybe nest time. I hope so.

With all due respect,

LEMONY Snicket

P.S. Ring, bells of regret! "



The message in Sebald Code is: "ATTENDING YOUR MASKED BALL IS DANGEROUS BUT I'LL BE THERE. LEMONY"



But in addition to the code message note the following snippets:

"They're searching furiously for the SURVIVORS of Dr. Montgomery's collection."

When I talked to Dante, he explained to me that the classical interpretation of this passage is that there were several moments in history when the reptiles in Dr. Montgomery's collection were lost. According to classical interpretation, the loss of reptiles at the end of TRR can not be regarded as a "Time Mark", because of Daniel Handler's tendency to create duplicates of events to confuse the reader. Thus, Dante explained to me that the classical interpretation considers Beatrice's death as a true Time Mark, and all other evidence that all other Time Marks pointing to a possible Beatrice survival would actually be an attempt by Daniel Hanlder to deceive the reader. But of course, I disagree with the classical interpretation. I respect classical interpretation quite a lot, and I can not prove that classical interpretation is wrong. What I do know is that for the classical interpretation to work you need to believe that Lemony Snicket would never lie to his target audience, and that Daniel Hanlder made chronological mistakes.

On the other hand, the Strange Interpretation of Jean Lúcio from Brazil, has as premise that Lemony Snicket tells lies to the Great public of his universe whenever he believes it is good and necessary and that Daniel Hanlder did not make chronological errors. The assumptions are different, and so the results are different. And that is why in the Strange Interpretation of Jean Lúcio from Brazil, the death of Beatrice was removed as a time mark. In my understanding, in this letter from Lemony to R the word "survivors" leaves no doubt as to when Lemony's enemies were searching for reptiles. Individuals from a group of people or animals are called "survivors" when part of the group dies in a single tragic event. Although Uncle Monty had lost his reptiles on a few occasions before the TRR events, he recovered them. However, after the events described in TRR, there was a real death threat to the reptiles and amphibians that were part of that collection.

Bruce explained in TRR chap. 13:

"These snakes need to be taken care of, so we're giving them away to other scientists, zoos, and retirement homes. Those we can not find homes for we'll have PUT TO SLEEP. "



"Put to sleep" is an expression that probably means "to kill some animals".



These links contain a list of meanings in English for "Put to sleep":

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/put%20to%20sleep

www.yourdictionary.com/put-to-sleep



Among the meanings is: "to give drugs to animal that will make it die without pain".



Thus, the Masked Ball in which Lemony is referring in the letter to R in chapter 9 of the UA happened after most of the reptiles in Uncle Monty's collection were killed. This happened after the events described in TRR. Thus, the LAST MASKED BALL that happened in the R mansion could not have happened before the events described in TRR. Moreover, in Lemony's letter to R, Lemony states the following:

"My enemies are unlikely to cancel their plans of finding and capturing me ... They're furiously searching for the survivors of Dr. Montgomery's collection, but imagine how furiously they'll search for me."

This means that in this Ball, Lemony was sure that his enemies could search for him to capture him. As we all know, this is exactly what happened at the masked ball described in TAA and UA.

Apparently Lemony had to remove his bullfighter costume when he was captured, and left the costume at the Duchess's house. Soon after, the costume was destroyed in the fire. Why is this significant?



Note the description of this Masked Ball as found in TAA cap 11.

"I once attended one of the famed masked balls hosted by the Duchess of Winnipeg, and it was one of the most exciting and dangerous events of my life. I was disguised as a BULLFIGHTER and slipped into the party while being pursued by the palace guards , who were disguised as scorpions The moment I entered the Grand Ballroom, I felt as if Lemony Snicket had disappeared I WAS WEARING CLOTHES I HAD NEVER WORN BEFORE-a scarlet cape made of silk and a vest embroidered with gold thread and a skinny black mask-and it made me feel as if I was a different person, and because I felt like a different person, I dared to approach a woman I had been forbidden to approach the rest of my life. -the word "veranda" is a fancy term for the porch made of polished gray marble-and costumed as a dragonfly, with a glittering green mask and enormous silvery wings. As my pursuers scurried around the party, trying to guess which guest was me I slipped out to the veranda and gav and her the message I'd been trying to give her for fifteen long and lonely years. "BEATRICE," I cried, just as the scorpions spotted me, "COUNT OLAF IS--" I CAN NOT GO ON. It makes me weep to think of THAT EVENING, AND OF THE DARK AND DESPERATE TIMES THAT FOLLOWED. "

Another important detail is that the masked ball in which Lemony was captured dressed as a bullfighter was the last to occur until the time when the letter from R to Lemony was written. The letter was written when Lemony had already begun his research on Beatrice's children. Lemony only began his search after the fire of the Baudelaire mansion. Between the day Lemony once used his bullfighter costume and the day the letter was written, there was no other masked ball. The letter was written after R had seen the arrival of the original TMM book. Then all this indicates that this masked ball happened after the publication of TWW and before the publication of TMM.



Please realize that the only time Lemony ever used a bullfighter's guise (at least until he wrote TAA) was when he went to that particular Masked Ball. He was captured on that Masked Ball. After that, he became a fugitive, he had his death published again in the newspapers, and he spent several years abroad. In the book TAA, Lemony refers to these years as THE DARK AND DESPERATE TIMES THAT FOLLOWED the Masked Ball.



In the book TCC chap. 6, Klaus finds written information about a masked ball. But it's not the same Masked Ball. Klaus finds a paper where it says:

'' My Dear Duchess, Your masked ball sounds like a fantastic evening, and I look forward to ... '"



According to ATWQ, there have been many Masked Balls in the house of R. This is a duplicate event. The difference lies in the fact that in just one of these Masked Balls Lemony was disguised as Bullfighter. And it was in the Masked Ball that Lemony was captured. The masked ball that Klaus read about it on paper, happened before or during the main events of ASOUE. However, due to the evidence we have already considered, I believe that the Masked Ball in Lemony was captured happened 15 years after Olaf's death.

According to the description in TAA, Lemony gave Beatrice information on Count Olaf. "COUNT OLAF IS ..." I can only imagine a word to close this sentence. "COUNT OLAF IS DEAD!" Lemony told this to Beatrice 15 years AFTER Count Olaf's death. After all, just like Kit, Olaf died on a desert island with few witnesses. Lemony states that he can not expose the phrase to the Great Public. If he did this, all the readers of the Great Public of his universe would realize that Beatrice survived the fire and was still alive after many years had passed. My conclusion is that Beatrice survived for many years after the fire at the Baudelaire mansion.

If we continue analyzing chapter 9 of the UA using the premises I have listed, we will come to the same conclusions.

After Lemony's letter to R, there is a letter from an enemy of Lemony to someone named Genius. It's interesting that the letter is not for Olaf. By this time Olaf had evidently died.



Below I've copied some highlights from the letter



"Dear Genius,



Gathering information on Dr. Montgomery's reptile collection, as you requested, is a simple as you find a needle in a haystack, if there were a sign over the haystack reading "Needle Here!" with a brightly colored arrow pointing to the exact location of the needle. Finding the reptiles themselves are the difficult ones falling off the log, if the log were so sticky that it was practically impossible to remove oneself from it ...

With my disguise in place, I went to my local library, and it was decorated with a new sign that looked like this



"The World is at your Fingertips at Libray! Please Quiet Here."



Whistling one of my favorite tune, I entered the building and found the librarian, and old man with neatly trimmed gray hair and the mustache that tuned up at the ends. ... When I told him he was looking for information on the reptiles in Dr. Montgomery’s collection, the old man ... said, "well, young lady, have you been good to your mother?"

"What?" I replied. "Never Mind" he said quickly, and led me to the Children’s Room, where to my amazement there was a book all about Dr. Montgomery’s collection and three obnoxious children who visited it. The book is called The Reptile Room, so I was quickly able to find several passages describing the collection. "



After that, we find excerpts from the book TRR. Why is this significant?

As Lemony described in the letter to R in Chapter 9 of the AU, this enemy, at the request of one of his leaders, was searching for the survivors of Uncle Monty's collection. He was looking after the end of events recorded in TRR, and so some of the reptiles probably had already died. After all, he found information about the collection in the TRR book.



According to chapter 9 of the UA, after searching for information in the book TRR, the enemy of Lemony disguised like a cow.

He searched for reptiles in various places. Finally, note what happened:

"7 - Approached a married couple who apparently own the Prospero to ask if any reptiles had recently boarded the ship.

Couple, alarmed by talking cow, refused to participate.



8 - Saw signs indicating there was a dairy nearby. Did not approach due to fear of being milked. "



After this letter, in chapter 9 of the UA, we find a personal note from Lemony. Notice what he wrote:



"Note to file:



The library at Prufrock Preparatory School was a pleasant place, with comfortable chairs, huge wooden bookshelves, brass lamps in the shapes of different fish, and bright blue curtains that rippled like water as a breeze came in from the window. The librarian was an old man with neatly trimmed gray hair and the mustache that turned up at the ends ... As soon as I began to sing the coded song, the old man, whose back was straight, saluted me as if I were a soldier and said "Well, young lady, have you been good to your mother?" a phase with here means "I have a message for you." I gave the coded reply - "The question is, has she been good to me?" - and received the following note in return: "



Thus, we can conclude that the enemy went to look for information in Prufrock Prep, because like Lemony, he found exactly the same librarian, and this librarian spoke exactly the same message. The librarian was confused because coincidentally Lemony's enemy was whistling exactly the same song that Lemony whistled.



Thus, we can conclude that the book TRR was already published in Lemony's universe before the closing of Prufrock Prep.



From my point of view, this confirms the theory of the Great Hiatus, and shows that the TAA book was written many years after the writing of the TRR book, since in the TAA book, Lemony states that during the writing of the book TAA Prufrock Pre was closed many years ago. More than that, this confirms that the Ball in which Lemony was capithed, happened after the writing of TRR. In the very book TRR, we find the passage in which Lemony states that Klaus years after the events described in TRR, had difficulty sleeping.



What was the message to Lemony? It was a message from a couple. The couple that the enemy of Lemony disguised as cow approached. The message read:

"Dear Mr. Snicket,

Dr. Montgomery's reptiles. "We're not going to do that," he said. Do not worry - we did not mention anything about our assistance with the Incredibly Deadly Viper - but we fear that the henchman cold use his disguise to cause trouble at Valorous Farms Dairy. The world is quiet here. "



All of this leads me to believe that Lemony knew about the enemies looking for the SURVIVORS of Uncle Monty's collection through this message. Knowing this, Lemony sent the letter to R, talking about the Masked Ball in Sebald code. This to me, is a logical sequence of events.

More than that, this confirms that the Ball in which Lemony was captured happened after the writing of TRR. From my point of view, all this only makes sense by following the order of events:



1 - Klaus, Sunny, Violet are adopted by Uncle Monty.

2 - After a few days almost all reptiles and amphibians of Uncle Monty are taken to the Herpetological Society.

3 - After some time, most reptiles are killed.

4 - A few years later, Klaus finds it difficult to sleep because of what happened while he was at Uncle Monty's house.

5 - Some time later, Lemony publishes TRR.

6 - Some time later Lemony publishes TWW.

7 - Sometime later, Lemony's enemy looks for information about Uncle Monty's collection in the book TRR in Prufrock Prep.

8 - Some time later, Lemony goes to Prufrock Prep and receives a letter, where two volunteers inform him about this enemy.

9 - Lemony then receives the invitation letter to a Masked Ball of the Duchess of Winnipeg.

10 - Lemony answers the letter, using Sebald code, and informs the Duchess that the enemies are looking for the survivors of the collection of Uncle Monty.

11 - Fifteen years after Olaf's death, Lemony goes to the Ball disguised as a bullfighter. It is the first and only time he wears these clothes. There he meets Beatrice, who was alive, and tells him that Count Olaf was dead.

12 - Lemony is captured, but escapes and becomes a fugitive.

13 - Lemony's death is published again in the daily Punctilio. A little later, Lemony flees abroad in Prospero, and spends many years out of the country.

14 - The Prufrock Prep stops working at some point after Lemony's departure abroad.

15 - Lemony returns from the outside and sends a letter to R along with the original TMM.

16 - R realizes that Lemony is alive, and then she answers the letter with another letter.

17 - The TMM book is published in Lemony's universe.

18 - The TAA book is published in Lemony's universe. In this book, Lemony reports how the Masked Ball he was captured in, and states that Purfrock Prep has been closed for many years.



(Note: Prufrock Prep may have been closed between the publication of TMM and TAA. But this would mean that there was also a hiatus of many years between the publication of these books. he in chapter 2 of the UA, Lemony states that there is a possibility that the photos were created using the advanced computer that exists in Prufrock Prep. This observation may indicate that Prufrock Prep still worked at that time, but I'd rather believe that the computer was abandoned there, and Lemony believes it's possible that someone might go there to use the computer. Another possibility is that Lemony believes the photos were manufactured before the Prufrock Prep closure, and then sent to him years later when he returned from abroad. )



Anyway, all this indicates that Beatrice survived for many years after the destruction of her house. Knowing this, you can begin to create theories about Beatrice's motivations. For example, if she survived, why did not she look for her children? I think only their closest friends could know the answer. Maybe someone who has also been trained in VFD to be an actress. Maybe someone who knows what it's like to have to live a lie for many years, pretending to be someone who is not. Someone who knows what it takes to pretend to love people she does not really love. Well, if you ever convinced yourself that Beatrice was alive, then you can understand the meaning behind those words of R to Lemony in her letter to him:

"Everything in that guest room is gone, and all the things in the guest room next door BEATRICE, OF COURSE, IS FAR PAST COMPLAINING ABOUT LOST POSSESSIONS - THE VERY REASON, I AM CERTAIN, THAT YOU HAVE DEDICATED YOUR LIFE RESEARCHING THE LIVES OF THOSE THREE POOR CHILDREN. "

In a future text I will explain better on this subject, according to some hypotheses that I have created. But before moving on to try to imagine Beatrice's motivations, we need to be sure of what really happened.

In the next Thread, I will write about the secret message that is in TSS, and why I believe it is a message to Beatrice. And because I do not believe in the classical interpretation of ASOUE that that letter is evidence that Lemony wrote ASOUE during recorded events, and then sent it to Kit, and then revised it and then published years later. Thanks for reading here. Until the next text. 

[Dante]

To be clear, I wouldn't necessarily characterise my replies to your theories as the definitive "classical" response, just one of many interpretations that have been fielded over the years and that I regarded as either the most relevant response to your ideas, or my own personal preference. What you might call "classical" ASoUE theory was compiled ad hoc over a number of years and I'm not sure anyone's ever syncretised a definitive post-series grand unifying interpretation. Maybe they should.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Dante,
Thank you for clarifying the subject. From the next text I will try to replace the expression "classical theory" by some other more appropriate expression. Would you have any suggestions? My English is poor, so I do not know yet which expression would be better.

[Dante]

You might call it a counter-argument, alternative explanation, or competing theory. I don't want to imply that other people haven't had their own ideas, or that the way the books were written wasn't intended to create multiple interpretations in the first place (regardless of how much confidence I have in my readings).

[Foxy]

Mar 10, 2019 17:04:32 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

 According to Lemony, when he wrote the book TRR there was no doubt that he was alive or dead, as he attended dinners, such as Madame d'Lustro's dinner.

Do you have any theories on who Madame d'Lustro is? Is she a V.F.D. member, or could she have been a trusted friend of Snicket's, so if he were pretending to be dead, she would keep his secret?

What I do know is that for the classical interpretation to work you need to believe that Lemony Snicket would never lie to his target audience, and that Daniel Hanlder made chronological mistakes.

I think ultimately this is what I believe, although it is fun to read your interpretations.

"Put to sleep" is an expression that probably means "to kill some animals".

In TUA, Mamba was killed. The Esme Squalor club had him on display.

Anyway, all this indicates that Beatrice survived for many years after the destruction of her house. Knowing this, you can begin to create theories about Beatrice's motivations. For example, if she survived, why did not she look for her children? I think only their closest friends could know the answer. Maybe someone who has also been trained in VFD to be an actress. Maybe someone who knows what it's like to have to live a lie for many years, pretending to be someone who is not. Someone who knows what it takes to pretend to love people she does not really love. Well, if you ever convinced yourself that Beatrice was alive, then you can understand the meaning behind those words of R to Lemony in her letter to him:

"Everything in that guest room is gone, and all the things in the guest room next door BEATRICE, OF COURSE, IS FAR PAST COMPLAINING ABOUT LOST POSSESSIONS - THE VERY REASON, I AM CERTAIN, THAT YOU HAVE DEDICATED YOUR LIFE RESEARCHING THE LIVES OF THOSE THREE POOR CHILDREN. "

In a future text I will explain better on this subject, according to some hypotheses that I have created. But before moving on to try to imagine Beatrice's motivations, we need to be sure of what really happened.

In the next Thread, I will write about the secret message that is in TSS, and why I believe it is a message to Beatrice. And because I do not believe in the classical interpretation of ASOUE that that letter is evidence that Lemony wrote ASOUE during recorded events, and then sent it to Kit, and then revised it and then published years later. Thanks for reading here. Until the next text. 

I am looking forward to reading your theories coming up which you mentioned here.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Foxy,

Your posts always encourage me a lot. About Madame d'Lustro I do not know who she is specifically. I believe that the real Madame d'Lustro was a member of VFD. She probably died, and someone else, probably a confused volunteer, took her place.
Madame D'Lustro is described in TRR as a good friend of Lemony. This seems to indicate that she was from VFD. In later books, Lemony indicates that most of his friends were dead. The subject of people pretending to be other people is very recurrent in ASOUE. We have Madame Lulu, we have Count Olaf, The Duchess of Winnipeg (who pretended to be Lemony pretending to be someone else), Eligton Feint, Hangfire, Aunt Josephine (who faked her own death and then suggested to Olaf that she could change her name).

[TheAsh]

As my pursuers scurried around the party, trying to guess which guest was me I slipped out to the veranda and gav and her the message I'd been trying to give her for fifteen long and lonely years. "BEATRICE," I cried, just as the scorpions spotted me, "COUNT OLAF IS--" I CAN NOT GO ON.

Why would Lemony try to give the message for 15 long years? Remember Count Olaf was dead on book 13. And on the island they find:

There were objects the Baudelaires recognized, including a triangular picture frame and a brass lamp in the shape of a fish, and there were objects the Baudelaires had never seen before, including the skeleton of an elephant and a glittering green mask one might wear as part of a dragonfly costume, and there were objects the Baudelaires did not know if they had seen before, such as a wooden rocking horse and a piece of rubber that looked like a fan belt.

It seems to me that the dragonfly costume is the same as the one Beatrice wore. Thus, the Masked Ball happened during the publication of ASOUE, but before Count Olaf died.  Even if it's not, why would saying Count Olaf is dead have any significance to Beatrice, so much so that he needed to tell her that for fifteen years, and for Lemony to risk his life to tell her she was captured?

I would like to interrupt for a moment and answer a question I’m sure you are asking yourself. It is an important question, one which many, many people have asked many, many times, in many, many places all over the world. The Baudelaire orphans have asked it, of course. Mr. Poe has asked it. I have asked it. My beloved Beatrice, before her untimely death, asked it, although she asked it too late. The question is: Where is Count Olaf?

How could Beatrice possibly ask it too late, if she survived for fifteen years after the death of Count Olaf?

Rather, it seems to me that while Beatrice did survive the fire, the Masked Ball took place while Olaf is alive, and the message is "Count Olaf is Alive" or "Count Olaf is a Traitor" or "Count Olaf is after your children" or something like that.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Feb 5, 2020 5:50:09 GMT -5 TheAsh said:

As my pursuers scurried around the party, trying to guess which guest was me I slipped out to the veranda and gav and her the message I'd been trying to give her for fifteen long and lonely years. "BEATRICE," I cried, just as the scorpions spotted me, "COUNT OLAF IS--" I CAN NOT GO ON.

Why would Lemony try to give the message for 15 long years? Remember Count Olaf was dead on book 13. And on the island they find:

There were objects the Baudelaires recognized, including a triangular picture frame and a brass lamp in the shape of a fish, and there were objects the Baudelaires had never seen before, including the skeleton of an elephant and a glittering green mask one might wear as part of a dragonfly costume, and there were objects the Baudelaires did not know if they had seen before, such as a wooden rocking horse and a piece of rubber that looked like a fan belt.

It seems to me that the dragonfly costume is the same as the one Beatrice wore. Thus, the Masked Ball happened during the publication of ASOUE, but before Count Olaf died.  Even if it's not, why would saying Count Olaf is dead have any significance to Beatrice, so much so that he needed to tell her that for fifteen years, and for Lemony to risk his life to tell her she was captured?

I would like to interrupt for a moment and answer a question I’m sure you are asking yourself. It is an important question, one which many, many people have asked many, many times, in many, many places all over the world. The Baudelaire orphans have asked it, of course. Mr. Poe has asked it. I have asked it. My beloved Beatrice, before her untimely death, asked it, although she asked it too late. The question is: Where is Count Olaf?

How could Beatrice possibly ask it too late, if she survived for fifteen years after the death of Count Olaf?

Rather, it seems to me that while Beatrice did survive the fire, the Masked Ball took place while Olaf is alive, and the message is "Count Olaf is Alive" or "Count Olaf is a Traitor" or "Count Olaf is after your children" or something like that.

As you said, Ash, Beatrice wanted to know where Count Olaf was. The information that Count Olaf was dead was important because she did not know that. She was probably living in disguise. Olaf died on a desert island, with few witnesses. Understand that TRR was written after a few years after Uncle Monty's death. Olaf died less than a year after Uncle Monty's death. The villain disguised as a cow entered information in TRR that had already been published in the universe of ASOUE. The dance was after that search. Soon the ball was years after the death of Uncle Monty. It is a matter of logic. I have also shown that the most important source of Lemony's research was evidently the island book. The Baudelaires' history was written by themselves in that book after Count Olaf's death. This is the simplest and most logical way to explain where Lemony got the information to write ASoUE. According to him, the Baudelaires' story is true and someone simply wrote it down. The ideas that Lemony resorted to secret cameras scattered everywhere where the Baudelaires were, besides being non-canonical, do not explain how Lemony knew what the Baudelaires were thinking. In ASOUE Lemony had access only to the thoughts of Klaus, Sunny and Violet, and the only logical explanation for this is that these thoughts were recorded by the Baudelaires in the island's book and Lemony found this book after the Baudelaires left the island.

[TheAsh]

How do you explain the dragonfly costume? Was it a different one?

Although the book was a likely source of the Baudelaire's thoughts, it does not mean that all of the story is from there. We know that the books have a mix of past present and future events, and it's heavily implied that some parts were written during the actual events. Maybe after he wrote the first draft, he added the thoughts later.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Feb 5, 2020 13:13:08 GMT -5 TheAsh said:

How do you explain the dragonfly costume? Was it a different one?

Yes, it was. (Or she either bought or made another mask. There are many options.)

Feb 5, 2020 13:13:08 GMT -5 TheAsh said:

it's heavily implied that some parts were written during the actual events.

Could you give concrete examples of this? The idea that Lemony wrote ASOUE's books, then published these books on Averse, then changed the content of those books and then published those books again has no canonical support. You compared ASOUE's 13 books with LSTUA. In LSTUA there is clear and physical evidence that Lemony Snicket added handwriting to documents that were already in print. It was the author's intention that the reader saw this. On the other hand, in ASOUE's 13 books, there is not even a manually written addition. The letters to the editor indicate that Lemony revisited the places where the Baudelaires passed and sent the manuscript to the editor. The idea that Daniel Handler wants to convey is that Lemony Snicket sent these manuscripts and they were published and that's it. The book that we have in hand, came from those manuscripts. There were no other books published for the general public before these. After all, ASOUE's 13 books, from those manuscripts, are Lemony's last hope that the Baudelaires' story will be published to the general public. It would not make sense for these letters to refer to manuscripts of books that had already been published and that now only needed to be revised. The only book that was actually revised was TBB. But according to Lemony, he added nothing to the story in the review. He just added the notes he had written during the TBB publication research. According to the notes, TBB was relaunched not only in our universe, but also in Lemony's universe. When Lemony republished TBB, he hadn't even written Book 13 yet, according to the notes. Still, he was planning to write, and he already knew that he would narrate the events that took place on the island. According to Lemony's notes (not Daniel Handler's), it had been years since TBB was first released. Still, Lemony had not published book 13 in his universe. If it was Daniel Handler's intention to understand that book 13 already existed in another form (without the Baudelaires' thoughts being recorded), he would have written that book 13 already existed. But it was not the case.

[TheAsh]

It is likely that I will never know, just as I will probably never know the location of the fan belt, no matter how many times I return to Caligari Carnival to search for it. At first I thought that Madame Lulu dropped the strip of rubber on the ground near the pit, but I have searched the entire area with a shovel and a flashlight and found no sign of it, and none of the carnival visitors whose houses I have searched seem to have taken it home for a souvenir. Then I thought that perhaps the fan belt was thrown into the air during all the commotion, and perhaps landed up in the tracks of the roller coaster, but I have climbed over every inch without success. And there is, of course, the possibility that it has burned away, but lightning devices are generally made of a certain type of rubber that is difficult to burn, so that possibility seems remote. And so I must admit that I do not know for certain where the fan belt is, and, like knowing whether it was the bald man or Madame Lulu who fell first, that this may be information that will never come to me.

And

There were objects the Baudelaires recognized, including a triangular picture frame and a brass lamp in the shape of a fish, and there were objects the Baudelaires had never seen before, including the skeleton of an elephant and a glittering green mask one might wear as part of a dragonfly costume, and there were objects the Baudelaires did not know if they had seen before, such as a wooden rocking horse and a piece of rubber that looked like a fan belt.

That's one example. 
There's also many things that Lemony writes as if he doesn't know what will happen, which, if he does, is rather striking.
I also recall he sent the manuscript of TAA from the orphan shack in Prufrock Prep, which we know burnt to the ground around the time of TSS.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Feb 5, 2020 16:21:21 GMT -5 TheAsh said:

It is likely that I will never know, just as I will probably never know the location of the fan belt, no matter how many times I return to Caligari Carnival to search for it. At first I thought that Madame Lulu dropped the strip of rubber on the ground near the pit, but I have searched the entire area with a shovel and a flashlight and found no sign of it, and none of the carnival visitors whose houses I have searched seem to have taken it home for a souvenir. Then I thought that perhaps the fan belt was thrown into the air during all the commotion, and perhaps landed up in the tracks of the roller coaster, but I have climbed over every inch without success. And there is, of course, the possibility that it has burned away, but lightning devices are generally made of a certain type of rubber that is difficult to burn, so that possibility seems remote. And so I must admit that I do not know for certain where the fan belt is, and, like knowing whether it was the bald man or Madame Lulu who fell first, that this may be information that will never come to me.

I did not understand this example you gave ... From my point of view, this example only reinforces that Lemony had information about what had happened to the Baudelaires since before revisiting the locations of the events. After all, how could Lemony know that there was a fan belt out there, if he never found it? Lemony evidently read about it in the island book. He went to confirm that what he read in the island's book had physical evidence to be true. Not everything he was able to confirm, but he published it nonetheless, as it was a coherent and sufficiently reliable account from the Baudelaires themselves.

There were objects the Baudelaires recognized, including a triangular picture frame and a brass lamp in the shape of a fish, and there were objects the Baudelaires had never seen before, including the skeleton of an elephant and a glittering green mask one might wear as part of a dragonfly costume, and there were objects the Baudelaires did not know if they had seen before, such as a wooden rocking horse and a piece of rubber that looked like a fan belt.

Similarly, this example reinforces my thesis. Lemony knew the Baudelaires' thoughts. He knew that the Baudelaires had recognized some objects, knew that they had not recognized other objects, and knew that they were in doubt as to whether or not they had already seen some of those objects. How did Lemony have access to this information? He was not on the island at the same time as the Baudelaires ... And please, do not talk about hidden cameras ... As the TE book is reported, it would take a Drone filming the events, as well as a psychic to read the their thoughts. The most logical thing is that they themselves wrote the accounts from their point of view in the island book, and Lemony found that book later. That's why Daniel Handler had to say that everything ends up on that island sooner or later, so that no one would say: "But why did Lemony go to that island exactly to look for information about the Baudelaires?" He didn't go to that island to look. He ended up stopping there accidentally and found the book by luck. I agree that he had already started research and had already started to write some things. But the manuscript by TBB and the other books that was sent to the editor contained information taken from the book on the island.

Feb 5, 2020 16:21:21 GMT -5 TheAsh said:

 Prufrock Prep... burnt to the ground around the time of TSS.

Please show me where you got this information from.

[TheAsh]

Another thing: The Baudelaires misremember exactly what happened on a number of occasions. Here's one obvious one:
>“I also brought you some tea,” he said, revealing a tray containing a teapot and three cups. “I thought it might fortify you for the trial.”
By “fortify,” the manager meant that a few sips of tea might give the children some much-needed strength for their ordeal, and the children thought it must be Frank who was doing them such a favor. “You’re very kind,” Violet said.
“I’m sorry there’s no sugar,” he said.
“That’s quite all right,” Klaus said, and then hurriedly flipped to a page in his commonplace book until he found his notes on the children’s conversation with Kit Snicket. “‘Tea should be bitter as wormwood,’” he read, “‘and as sharp as a two-edged sword.’”
The manager gave Klaus a small, unfathomable smile. “Drink your tea,” he said. “I’ll knock in a few minutes to bring you to trial.”
Frank, unless it was Ernest, shut the door, and left the Baudelaires alone.
“Why did you say that about the tea?” Violet asked.
“I thought he might be talking to us in code,” Klaus said. “I thought if we gave the proper reply, something might happen.”

But in The End we see:
“Wormwood,” Klaus said thoughtfully, and flipped the pages of his commonplace book. “Kit mentioned wormwood once,” he said, thinking of poor Kit alone on the coastal shelf. “She said tea should be as bitter as wormwood and as sharp as a two-edged sword. We were told the same thing when we were served tea right before our trial.”

So Klaus misremembered what happened! (I'm sure there are other examples of this, but I need to search for them.) If the Baudelaires don't remember exactly what happened, how can they be remembered to write down everything perfectly? And if Lemony's only source was the book, he would never know what really happened, he would just trust the Baudelaire memory. Furthermore, in TBL, Beatrice Jr. writes that Lemony misreported a lot of things. If his source was the book, that wouldn't have happened. (I also have another reason and it has to do with the sugar bowl, but I'll get to it when I write down my sugar bowl post.)

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Feb 6, 2020 5:46:43 GMT -5 TheAsh said:

Another thing: The Baudelaires misremember exactly what happened on a number of occasions. Here's one obvious one:
>“I also brought you some tea,” he said, revealing a tray containing a teapot and three cups. “I thought it might fortify you for the trial.”
By “fortify,” the manager meant that a few sips of tea might give the children some much-needed strength for their ordeal, and the children thought it must be Frank who was doing them such a favor. “You’re very kind,” Violet said.
“I’m sorry there’s no sugar,” he said.
“That’s quite all right,” Klaus said, and then hurriedly flipped to a page in his commonplace book until he found his notes on the children’s conversation with Kit Snicket. “‘Tea should be bitter as wormwood,’” he read, “‘and as sharp as a two-edged sword.’”
The manager gave Klaus a small, unfathomable smile. “Drink your tea,” he said. “I’ll knock in a few minutes to bring you to trial.”
Frank, unless it was Ernest, shut the door, and left the Baudelaires alone.
“Why did you say that about the tea?” Violet asked.
“I thought he might be talking to us in code,” Klaus said. “I thought if we gave the proper reply, something might happen.”

But in The End we see:
“Wormwood,” Klaus said thoughtfully, and flipped the pages of his commonplace book. “Kit mentioned wormwood once,” he said, thinking of poor Kit alone on the coastal shelf. “She said tea should be as bitter as wormwood and as sharp as a two-edged sword. We were told the same thing when we were served tea right before our trial.”

So Klaus misremembered what happened! (I'm sure there are other examples of this, but I need to search for them.) If the Baudelaires don't remember exactly what happened, how can they be remembered to write down everything perfectly? And if Lemony's only source was the book, he would never know what really happened, he would just trust the Baudelaire memory. Furthermore, in TBL, Beatrice Jr. writes that Lemony misreported a lot of things. If his source was the book, that wouldn't have happened. (I also have another reason and it has to do with the sugar bowl, but I'll get to it when I write down my sugar bowl post.)

Because Lemony did not rely solely on the book, he realized the need to personally confirm the information in the book, revisiting each place the Baudelaires went through and gathering evidence that what was in the book was true. According to Dante, what Beatrice wrote for Lemony indicates that the Baudelaires themselves were not reliable narrators for Beatrice, hiding shameful facts from the story itself. Regarding the memory of the Baudelaires, it is evident that each of them has a phenomenal memory, and this was evident in several excerpts from the books. Klaus can remember the information read. Violet can remember when she was two years old, and Sunny when she was a few weeks old. This is like a superpower of the three Baudelaires.


If you read the interviews conducted by Lemony, as recorded in TBB the Rare Edition, you will see that this is a research to confirm previously known facts.

[TheAsh]

Feb 5, 2020 16:41:53 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

Feb 5, 2020 16:21:21 GMT -5 TheAsh said:

I did not understand this example you gave ... From my point of view, this example only reinforces that Lemony had information about what had happened to the Baudelaires since before revisiting the locations of the events. After all, how could Lemony know that there was a fan belt out there, if he never found it? Lemony evidently read about it in the island book. He went to confirm that what he read in the island's book had physical evidence to be true. Not everything he was able to confirm, but he published it nonetheless, as it was a coherent and sufficiently reliable account from the Baudelaires themselves.

There were objects the Baudelaires recognized, including a triangular picture frame and a brass lamp in the shape of a fish, and there were objects the Baudelaires had never seen before, including the skeleton of an elephant and a glittering green mask one might wear as part of a dragonfly costume, and there were objects the Baudelaires did not know if they had seen before, such as a wooden rocking horse and a piece of rubber that looked like a fan belt.

Similarly, this example reinforces my thesis. Lemony knew the Baudelaires' thoughts. He knew that the Baudelaires had recognized some objects, knew that they had not recognized other objects, and knew that they were in doubt as to whether or not they had already seen some of those objects. How did Lemony have access to this information? He was not on the island at the same time as the Baudelaires ... And please, do not talk about hidden cameras ... As the TE book is reported, it would take a Drone filming the events, as well as a psychic to read the their thoughts. The most logical thing is that they themselves wrote the accounts from their point of view in the island book, and Lemony found that book later. That's why Daniel Handler had to say that everything ends up on that island sooner or later, so that no one would say: "But why did Lemony go to that island exactly to look for information about the Baudelaires?" He didn't go to that island to look. He ended up stopping there accidentally and found the book by luck. I agree that he had already started research and had already started to write some things. But the manuscript by TBB and the other books that was sent to the editor contained information taken from the book on the island.

Feb 5, 2020 16:21:21 GMT -5 TheAsh said:

 Prufrock Prep... burnt to the ground around the time of TSS.

Please show me where you got this information from.

I was wrong regarding Prufrock Prep. I'm sorry.
No, I don't think there was a drone. I think that there are multiple books with the title "A Series Of Unfortunate Events". The book on the island has that title as well, but there's no way the content is the same, unless Lemony changed or added some of it. (The parts with Lemony are definitely not in the island book, and the island book has Beatrice's writings on it, which ours doesn't.)

First of all, Babs got hold of Lemony's first drafts in ASOUE, (TUA, page 176) and Babs was killed by Count Olaf:

Babs has resigned from Heimlich Hospital,” said the voice, and the siblings felt as if they could see the cruel smile Olaf always had on his face when he was telling lies. “She decided to pursue a career as a stuntwoman, and has begun throwing herself off buildings immediately. My name is Mattathias, and I am the new Head of Human Resources. I will be conducting a complete inspection of every single employee here at Heimlich Hospital, beginning immediately. That is all.

The implication here is Babs was pushed off and murdered, yet before she died she got a hold of Lemony's planned opening sentence, which means Lemony started writing it before the Baudelaires got kicked off the island.

Furthermore, Mrs. K taught the kids in Prufrock Prep. I know you think it is Beatrice, but there's a big problem with the timeline then: Nero wrote to Mrs. Spats not to worry - none of the kids taken were Carmelita. But quite a lot of kids were taken from Prufrock Prep, and Carmelita was kidnapped by Esme! This letter has to be before the events of TSS, not after! Furthermore, in TSS, the Sinister Duo state they will burn all the kids' parents' houses down. Assuming they did do that, Carmelita's parents would not be alive.

Also, Olaf's Henchman was looking for the survivors of Montgomery's collection, and he drew a map. The map has Montgomery's house on it. That it implies the search took place BEFORE it was burnt down. (The Beatrice Letters do say that "I will love you until all the mansions will be rebuilt" so it's possible it was rebuilt.)

Thus, it seems to me that Lemony wrote his journeys and the Baudelaires' in A Series of Unfortunate Events and later on added the thoughts in. If you look at the quotes from the books, everything there is possible for Lemony to have known before his journey to the island. The thoughts were added in later.