OFFICIAL BOOK TWELVE DICUSSION THREAD.

[Dante]

I would certainly like to see both the bald and beardless judges in B13, as I think they're really cool characters. What role they would play I don't know, though - and I think it would be rather clichéd for Olaf to become good and help the Baudelaires. I don't think they rank above Olaf, except in evil.

[lauren]

They have to make a reapperance I mean with out blindfolds there is no doubt they survived the fire, and there is still so little we know about them...I think the taxi driver will also make a reapperance, after all he is currently in possession of the sugar bowl

[MikeT]

Okay, I'm finished! I got the copy of the book yesterday, and finished it just now.

I'm printing off this whole topic, like I did with TGG discussion. But I've just realised it's FORTYNINE pages long (in print).. so I'll have to make it so much smaller.

*goes to get book*.. MY favourite line was:

"...and even Sunny, who had just passed out of babyhood, was not born yesterday. Neither were you, unless of course I am wrong, in which case welcome to the world, little baby, and congratulations on learning to read so early in life."

It had me in stitches. Amazing. And Mr Poe in his money pajamas, and the person who loves his mother. It was amazing.

And all the information we got. I'm a little dissappointed he focused on the Denoument of the VFD story, and failed to mention anything about Beatrice. I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever find out about her.

It was refreshing to see all the characters back again. Charles, and Hal! It was great.

I'm sure there's more I need to say, but my mind is so full of stuff, it's hard to remember it all!

[Antenora]

Since Olaf is intimidated by these two, I think of them as his bosses, or at least people who are more evil than him. I doubt that Olaf will become good, as that would be rather too happy. It'd fit with the general themes of moral ambiguity, but go against the trend of good characters being corrupt, and evil characters being still more corrupt.

[lauren]

OMG...triggered by the line from antenora questioning the morality of count olaf, I just remembered one of my fav quotes from TPP ""What else can I do?" the villian asked, so quietly the children could not be sure they heard him correctly" pg 230 for that split second I could actually symphasize, actually not that far...but understand count olaf...

Oh and I disagree Antenora, I think it would be quite interesting if the Baudelaires turned out to be more wicked than Olaf in the end...the books began black and white with good guys and bad guys but have gradually became more colourful...from the bauds questioning wether they could actually be criminals in THH to Fernald's talk about there being no good and bad people in the world simply those who start fires and those who extinguise them (I assume this sentence means something along the lines of those who begin fights and those who end them), and bauds lighting the fire in bk 12...and also their murderous parents....and again also the in the bit about the author at the end of bk12 his hobbies include wondering if his enemies were right after all....Yes so I think it would be pretty neat if the Bauds found themselves in the end just as bad as Olaf and the beardless and hairless

[Dante]

You've got a fair point actually, lauren. I keep on forgetting that quote from TPP. And I'm happy with the Baudelaires being villainous (although it probably won't end that way) - I just don't want Olaf to become a noble person. Actually, wait. I'd accept Olaf becoming a noble person if the Baudelaires became treacherous people. Maybe. I'm not really sure what I want; it would depend, ultimately, on how Handler wrote it.

[Antenora]

I think both Olaf and the Baudelaires will be shown to be "chef's salads", like Fernald said all people are. And I'm also not sure if it would be better to have them end up on the same side, whether noble or villainous, or have them reverse roles.

However, even if the Baudelaires became corrupt, they'd still be the heroes of the story. It would be confusing if we found we could no longer sympathize with them.

[peril]

How did Jerome write Odious Lusting After Finance in a week?

He said he's been following the Bauds and writing his book since he found out about what happened to them at the Village of Fowl Devotees...but that leaves him only about week, week and a half between THH and TPP to write it. I mean, I'm sure it isn't impossible to write and publish a book in that time if you're an insanely fast typest or something, but Jerome would be travelling around, with little time to dedicate to just writing, so it seems impossible.

Oi, another of Handler's timeline inconsistancies...

Oh, could someone please tell me what page the Bertrand backgammon scene is on (the one where we find out his name)?

[Dante]

The Bertrand backgammon scene is on page 139.

And it might not have actually been published... It could just have been pages and pages of scribbled notes, hand-bound. But you're right - there hasn't been much time between TVV and TPP, and it probably wasn't enough. It's like Olaf's apparent light-speed travel at the beginning of TGG.

[Sixteen]

I fit was published then it wouldn't be a big deal burning the copy in the laundry room. But Justice Strauss seemed very upset.

[Antenora]

I agree with Dante--I don't think the book was actually published; it was just a collection of notes in a diary of some sort.

Handler does seem to get confused about the timing of the last few books; he says that Mr Poe looks a lot older since the Baudelaires last saw him, at the end of TGG , and they last saw him only a few days ago. That could just be his usual exaggeration, though.

[peril]

ffwf said:

The Bertrand backgammon scene is on page 139.

And it might not have actually been published... It could just have been pages and pages of scribbled notes, hand-bound. But you're right - there hasn't been much time between TVV and TPP, and it probably wasn't enough. It's like Olaf's apparent light-speed travel at the beginning of TGG.

Thanks for the page number.

Hmm, I didn't think about the possibility that it hadn't been published yet. But now that I think about it, it makes much more sense. I mean, if Jerome had published it already, it would let Olaf and the others know exactly what kind of evidence and information VFD had against them (if they even bothered to read it, which they probably wouldn't), so they would know exactly what to expect in trials and such.

[jman]

On page 283, it shows mycological books. Does that mean that Fiona was in the crowd?

[Dante]

I doubt it, but I noticed that too and wondered about it. I think all the pieces of evidence were just allusions to past books, or to random things. For example, the book alleging how wonderful Carmelita Spats is was probably her autobiography, Me: The Completely Authorized Autobiography of the Prettiest, Smartest, Most Darling Girl in the Whole Wide World.

[Antenora]

Another interesting line from that scene is "I submit these couplets!", but I doubt Isadora was in the crowd. However, maybe someone who found her couplets was. I'm not sure if any of the "submissions" were to be taken as serious clues, but they are interesting and funny.