OFFICIAL BOOK TWELVE DICUSSION THREAD.

[ineedyourhelp]

Yea, i dont think he meant a specific version, just to be poking fun at a popular song like you said.

[deanna.]

dupin said:

"...and we can ask for all soldiers in the world to lay down their weapons, and join us in a rousing chorus of 'Cry Me A River'..." (p 190)

One of the funniest bits of the book. This was definatley the most humorous.

That was my absolute favourite part of the book. It made me kill myself laughing, and my brother was looking at me really weirdly while I was just sitting on the couch, laughing my head off. And yes, this book was the most humorous book so far. It wasn't as dark and sinister as previous books.

[liamlvr]

lauren said:

liamlvr said:

Di ne1 notice the Klaus knows where the sugar bowl is? As he open the door he says,"Because it isnt there"

I can't remember where he said it but he explained that it was at the bottom of the lake

He said "its a secret that died with Dewey Decimal" and Dewey is at the bottom of a lake. Lemony said somewhere about it being it " avery damp place" A bottom of a lake is pretty damp

[Ennui]

Time for me to try and gather my thoughts.

A mixed bag, this book, with some bits I couldn't bring myself to like, but overall excellent. The ending redeems a lot.

Kit Snicket is a woman after my own heart. Bar Lemony she's now steps ahead as my favourite character in the series. I love her quotation-spouting.

The volunteer who cleans away the picnic is certainly Dewey from the way in which Kit talks about him. A minor but interesting point.

Frank and Ernest...ahhhh...a tremendous plot device. We still don't know the true source of most of their dialogue. As we know both sides of the schism use the same codes, even the Sebald message is ambiguous. This is why, to my mind, "in or enemies" is no error.

Look closely, and the message almost says "in or out". Think Esme-this would be a villain's way of identifying an accomplice. It also almost says "associates or enemies"-a volunteer's way of identifying a fellow-volunteer. Like the Baudelaires later with their "concierge" responses, the manager is hedging his bets.

Sadly, the existence of a third side of the schism is pretty debunked by something Kit says, I recall. The theory was, I suppose, too complex.

I'm still not letting go of Julio Sham. The Baudelaires are headed out to sea now, and it's clear neither Jerome nor Ms Strauss were long-time volunteers or addressees of the jam message (or had received Quigley's telegram-remember that cc.?)

I could tell that a third brother was in evidence from the three interviews, as most of you could, I'm sure, but I must say when Dewey arrived he irritated me. He was so bland and good; like Quigley but without the dishonesty. He got what he deserved, the goody-goody. This book has put me rather more on the arsonist side of the schism, I feel...

I also found the running mother gag intensely annoying, outstripping Olaf's laugh in TGG. Minor gripe as well-are we supposed to assume that the copy of Jerome's book used for kindling was the only one printed?

Some have criticised VFD for relying on an easily corrupted trial. My answer is that they didn't. The trial was orchestrated by the well-meaning but clueless laissez-faire Justice Strauss and Jerome Squalor.

New theory-"laissez faire" means "not in on VFD in any way, just blundering about making money."

VFD was expecting the Baudelaires to go with the taxi man from TWW and Chapter 10 (who had the sugar bowl in his possession). It was essentially a repeat of the dilemma at the end of TGG. This time, like the cretins they can be sometimes, the Baudelaires took the Mr Poe option, as it were.

I think the sugar bowl has now driven out of our story. We will never see it or that taxi man again. And in a way I'm grateful. The sugar bowl was too hyped up to be anything but disappointing if we learnt of its contents.

However, if Esme survives, the sugar bowl sub-plot may come back, I suppose. For now it looks like VFD have won a minor victory and stopped the villains getting it.

I liked Olaf's sense of pride in the Baudelaires' villainous achievements-"I was a good guardian after all!" and I love them ending literally in the same boat. I believe Olaf and the orphans may well need each other to survive, and even form a unity of sorts. Olaf is now alone, and so are they (apart from perhaps the Quagmires).

Fernald and Fiona seem to have gone freelance and independent, which is splendid.

[PJ]

ennui said:

I liked Olaf's sense of pride in the Baudelaires' villainous achievements-"I was a good guardian after all!" and I love them ending literally in the same boat. I believe Olaf and the orphans may well need each other to survive, and even form a unity of sorts. Olaf is now alone, and so are they (apart from perhaps the Quagmires).

I love that idea, of them having to stay together. With Olaf there, they might actually get some answers. It WOULD be quite a twist if HE revealed all the secrets.
"Now be quiet, orphan, or I'll burn you like I did your parents."
or
"We have to find the sugar bowl, or the authorities will have all the evidence on me."
Or something like that. I can also see Olaf telling the kids the crime their parents have commited, and then perhaps them being tempted to join.

Maybe they WILL join him, but leave him in the end, when something happens.
I like the idea of everyone being dissapointed in the Baudelaires for becoming evil, or perhaps they just go freelance, like Fernald and Fiona.

I can also see the Baudelaires VS the Quagmires, with lots of heart-break and sorrow and betrayal.

Edit:

dupin said:

"...and we can ask for all soldiers in the world to lay down their weapons, and join us in a rousing chorus of 'Cry Me A River'..." (p 190)

One of the funniest bits of the book. This was definatley the most humorous.

Damnit, I thought I could draw a nifty date for the song and use it on the asoue timeline, but the song was originally written in 1955.

[Ennui]

Certainly, I raise my goblet to a healthy and flourishing relationship between the Baudelaires and their one true rightful guardian...

I jumped when I saw the name Frank. "What? Is Lemony stealing my intellectual copyright on Francis Baudelaire?"

Oh and the woman in the taxi's trunk-I'm inclined to think Duchess, but I have a feeling we may not be told the answer to this one. I'm praying that R appears in Book 13-I was disappointed not to see her in TPP.

[Antenora]

ennui said:

Minor gripe as well-are we supposed to assume that the copy of Jerome's book used for kindling was the only one printed?

That's what I assumed--that it was a compilation of pages from a commonplace book, or something similar.

Also, you may be right about "laissez-faire" meaning "not really part of VFD" , although there are VFDers who don't know which side to help, such as Olivia.

[Sugary Snicket]

PJ-san, that WOULD be a twist. Nice theory.

EDIT: And it's a musical, not a play. I'm going to use Justin Timberlake's version, because it'll be funny to have an in-between at a very signifigant part and have some soldiers just walk on stage and sing "cry me a river." LOL.

[RockSunner]

ennui said:

I'm still not letting go of Julio Sham. The Baudelaires are headed out to sea now, and it's clear neither Jerome nor Ms Strauss were long-time volunteers or addressees of the jam message (or had received Quigley's telegram-remember that cc.?)

I'm not convinced that Justice Strauss or Jerome Squalor was not copied on Quigley's telegram. Dewey seemed to think the clueless pair were helpful, and Kit (in love with Dewey) might trust his judgment enough to let them in on the Baudelaire's movements.

If so, there is a good source for the leak that led Mr. Poe to Briny Beach at the end of TGG. Justice Strauss could easily have blabbed to her fellow Justices, "The Baudelaires are going to be at Briny Beach tomorrow. Isn't that wonderful?" or some such. She might easily omit the taxi detail.

If Violet were not blinded by love, she should see by now that Quigley is a trained agent. Not only did he know too much in TSS, we now know he can:

1) "Manage to" contact Kit within a very short time.
2) Disguise himself as a mannequin.
3) Steal a helicopter and fly it by himself.
4) Construct a large net capable of catching and holding eagles.

This is no mere young man who stumbled on Jacques right after a fire in his home.

[Sora]

But that just doesn't make any sense. The other Quagmires had no idea about anything to do with VFD in TAA, and yet Quigly does? How long was Quigly away from Jaques? The timeline of this book is so confusing.......

[RockSunner]

The other Quagmires know quite a bit,too. They try a few times to get the information to the Baudelaires:

TVV, p 245
This is all the information we have about Count's Olaf's evil plan, and the secret of V.F.D., and Jacques Snicket's murder!"

My theory is that they knew more than they were telling all along, just like Quigley, and they only tried to tell the Baudelaires more after being captured.

[Dante]

rocksunner said:

This is no mere young man who stumbled on Jacques right after a fire in his home.

Oh, I don't know. The Baudelaires themselves have achieved much under trying circumstances, and been on simmilarly brave missions, and they haven't even had expert volunteers being at least half-honest with them from the start (just recently). Although note that it's just that statement I disagree with - all three Quagmires, I think, haven't said everything they know (although with Duncan and Isadora, it seems that they just haven't had the opportunity since learning of the real danger that the Baudelaires are in).

While you make a good argument for Justice Strauss (for example) being the copied person on the telegram, I'm still not convinced that we know every J.S. Even if the telegram were intended for Justice Strauss, she might not have received it, and vice versa - she and Jerome Squalor found messages everywhere for some other J.S. (although it's left ambiguous, naturally, as to whether they were intended for each other).

[Sugary Snicket]

I've always thought that the Quags were VFD members.....

[Sora]

rocksunner said:

The other Quagmires know quite a bit,too. They try a few times to get the information to the Baudelaires:

TVV, p 245
This is all the information we have about Count's Olaf's evil plan, and the secret of V.F.D., and Jacques Snicket's murder!"

My theory is that they knew more than they were telling all along, just like Quigley, and they only tried to tell the Baudelaires more after being captured.

Well we know that by the end of TAA, they had discovered quite a bit about VFD from the newspaper articles, but never were able to tell the Baudelaires. We can also assume that by TVV, they had eavsdropped enough on Olaf to have learned more about Volunteer Fire Department. However, I do Not think the Quagmires knew anything about VFD before TAA and unless Quigly was told by his parents before he escaped through the tunnel, I don't think he knew anything either.

[lauren]

violetbaudelaire13 said:

I've always thought that the Quags were VFD members.....

By that do you mean the triplets or their parents?? I don't think the triplets are VFD members...yet, but I do believe their parents were