|
Post by counto on Mar 13, 2021 19:47:18 GMT -5
Well ... Lemony may have had her death published for the first time in the mid-1980s. Beatrice got married and got pregnant right at the start of the marriage. Then she went to the island in 1980. Then she left the island in early 1981 in the winter. And then, in early 1981, Violet was born. 15 years later (1996) she was at GG and a few days after that she was on the island. What about? With respect to how long asoue has been published, I think we have internal evidence that even TPP at least 10 years have passed. There is the encounter with Beatrice jr (which I believe happened before the publication of TE, and there is also a comment that Lemony makes comparing himself with a poet who publishes some poems for 10 years or so. So I think there is evidence that the publication time of the 12 books is 10 years, from 1999 to 2009. TBB and TRR being published in 1999 (with evidence of this in LSTUA) and TPP in 2009. Right so Violet was born in early 1981 and Klaus born early 1983. Sunny being born 1994, a year before ASOUE takes place. Fiona was born a year before Violet in 1980. Friday being born 6 to 7 years before TE takes place. Fiona - 1980 Violet - 1981 Quagmire Trio - 1982 (Being a year older than Klaus and year younger than Violet) Klaus - 1983 Friday - 1989 Sunny - 1994
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 13, 2021 20:20:41 GMT -5
Right so Violet was born in early 1981 and Klaus born early 1983. Sunny being born 1994, a year before ASOUE takes place. Fiona was born a year before Violet in 1980. Friday being born 6 to 7 years before TE takes place. Fiona - 1980 Violet - 1981 Quagmire Trio - 1982 (Being a year older than Klaus and year younger than Violet) Klaus - 1983 Friday - 1989 Sunny - 1994 I think this is really good. In fact, I think this is better than ever.
|
|
|
Post by counto on Mar 14, 2021 2:36:00 GMT -5
Definitely a whole lot better. So going back to what you mentioned earlier about Lemony proposing to Beatrice in 1975 (Lemony being 22 years old), around the same time Olaf's schism takes place. O's parents are still alive at that point until 1980 when the events of the opera took place. It's a bit conflicting since I always thought that the deaths of Olaf's parents caused him to turn the fire starting side in the first place.
However Olaf's family could've been fire-starters from the very beginning, which would explain why they were killed. Also why Olaf criticises the Baudelaire children about this in the Grim Grotto, talking about the Baudelaire family was on the noble side of VFD and how they had no other choice. I think he may have also been implying that he himself (Olaf) came from a not so noble side of VFD and was given the choice to change that.
Why it took Olaf to start in 1975 instead of sooner, I'm not too sure. Perhaps something happened back then that made him turn. We can also assume he's a young adult at that point to probably in his mid 20's (24-26 years old). If so then he would be 46/47 in ASOUE (1995/96) or 44/45 if he was 24. I personally aim his age at 46 and 47 (born 1949).
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 14, 2021 7:09:16 GMT -5
Definitely a whole lot better. So going back to what you mentioned earlier about Lemony proposing to Beatrice in 1975 (Lemony being 22 years old), around the same time Olaf's schism takes place. O's parents are still alive at that point until 1980 when the events of the opera took place. It's a bit conflicting since I always thought that the deaths of Olaf's parents caused him to turn the fire starting side in the first place. However Olaf's family could've been fire-starters from the very beginning, which would explain why they were killed. Also why Olaf criticises the Baudelaire children about this in the Grim Grotto, talking about the Baudelaire family was on the noble side of VFD and how they had no other choice. I think he may have also been implying that he himself (Olaf) came from a not so noble side of VFD and was given the choice to change that. Why it took Olaf to start in 1975 instead of sooner, I'm not too sure. Perhaps something happened back then that made him turn. We can also assume he's a young adult at that point to probably in his mid 20's (24-26 years old). If so then he would be 46/47 in ASOUE (1995/96) or 44/45 if he was 24. I personally aim his age at 46 and 47 (born 1949). Canonically speaking, the death of Olaf's parents had nothing to do with him becoming an arsonist. He became an arsonist because he received a bad review from Lemony about his play, according to Jacques at LSTUA. And it is not Olaf who talks about the death of his parents in TGG, if I am not mistaken ... I think Fernald talks about the involvement of Beatrice and Bertrand with poison darts and then in TPP Olaf says that his parents were killed with poison darts, and Kit claims that the Baudelaires' parents and herself were involved in a scheme involving poison darts during the opera. And oddly enough, when Olaf talks about the death of his own parents, he doesn't make any comment involving grudge or revenge. I will write about it sometime. But the evidence points out that the reasons for Olaf to become a villain have nothing to do with the death of his parents. If the story about Conde Velho has anything to do with Olaf, it shows that Conde Velho mistreated his son with words. Also, I think we need to look carefully at the incendiary side. While the fire-extinguishing side continued as a large and in fact organized organization, the incendiary side seems to have been formed only by not very organized revolts. Count Olaf's troupe appears to have been one of the largest "cells" on the incendiary side. Georgina O doesn't seem to have formed a gang until Olaf's arrival. The sinister duo was a gang of just two people, until they got in touch with Olaf. Olaf needed to kidnap children in order to form a team to help navigate the Submarine he stole. Franck Denouement was not a gang member nor was he considered dangerous by the brothers themselves, as he apparently agreed with the philosophy of the arsonist side, but that does not mean that he was in fact violent. If the incendiary side was ever organized, it had already been diluted by the time of asoue's main events. And that's probably the real reason behind Olaf's apparent 14-year truce. The AA fire must have been a major blow to the arsonists' organization. And if I'm right about the thinking of Lemony Snicket's supporters, the murder of his father if Olaf must have been a surgical action, which killed one of the main leaders of the incendiary organization, causing their morale to be really low, until Olaf (the son of the former leader) decided to act more or less like his father.
|
|
|
Post by counto on Mar 22, 2021 3:59:48 GMT -5
So I been thinking about this for awhile. We been pondering when ASOUE (the book series) was released in the universe to solve the mystery of the timeline. However one thing that I thought of recently was what if the book series was published later than the actually real life book series. Originally TBB was published in 1999 till 2006 when TE was published marking an end to the series. Following a prequel mini-series three years later.
From what we've accumulated throughout this chat, is that ASOUE takes place in the 90's while ATWQ takes place in the 70's. The world ASOUE/ATWQ is fairly anachronistic with outdated technology still being used along with new ones. For example Nero's "supercomputer" and telegram machines still being used despite being obsolete in our reality. There's also real life events that took place such as WWI and the Death of Julius Caesar.
One thing we can connect the dots with is the inverse literature throughout the book series. ATWQ, 12-13 year old Lemony mentions two books by Roald Dahl (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Danny the Champion of the World), along with Nobody's Family Is Going to Change by Louise Fitzhugh. Danny came out in 1975 and Nobody's Family in 1974. Another book mentioned is Harriet the Spy aka the Long Secret also by Fitzhugh published in 1965.
In TAA, Mrs K (Kit Snicket) one of the books given to her students as an assignment was Matilda by Roald Dahl. Matilda was published in 1988. Now clearly some time has passed since the events of ATWQ and ASOUE. Let's say for the sake of argument that ATWQ takes place in 1977 (year of the snake). That would mean Lemony would've born in 1965. So 18 years later (1983) Lemony would be able to graduate and start working.
I think that Lemony would've faked his death around early 1984, a year before Violet Baudelaire would be born (1985). Now if that were true ASOUE would take place in 1998-1999. The year that ASOUE would be published in our universe. We know ASOUE takes roughly over a year, Beatrice II being born on the second year. And if Beatrice II was born in 1999, Lemony would've met her in 2009, which we can assume that Lemony (the character) published the series.
So ASOUE may take place in 1999 and ATWQ in 1977.
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 22, 2021 8:58:11 GMT -5
We will disagree with a few things here. First of all, for everything to work out, we need to assume that miss K is not Kit. This can be shown canonically, since miss K took one of asoue's books to Peufrock Prep. Kit was already dead by this time. There is another K mentioned in LSTUA at the construction committee meeting. A newbie in addition to Kit Snicket. Second, we need to recognize that Lemony published the books over the course of several years. Such years need not necessarily be the same years in which this happened in our universe. However, Lemony certainly published some books before he met Beatrice Jr, because in one of the letters and Beatrice Jr to Lemony, Beatrice Jr said that the reports made by the Baudelaires were different from the accounts of Lemony Snicket, indicating that Lemony had already published some books before Beatrice Jr met him. In T.C.C., TSS and TGG we discovered that Lemony did not know that Kit had died during the publication of these books, as he sent messages to him or stated that he could somehow save her. This is strong evidence that Lemony had not yet met Beatrice Jr when he published these books. The meeting with Beatrice Jr, therefore, took place at some point before the publication of TPP or at some time before the publication of TE. I prefer to believe that it was sometime before the publication of TE, because in Lemony's letter to Kit, he states that he intended to meet Kit at Hotel D. Therefore, I conclude that during the years that Lemony was publishing his books, Hotel D has been rebuilt. That is why Lemony claims to have gone there, that is why he threw stones into the lake hoping that Kit would come to him in vain. And so he had the paper he used to write several letters to the editor (printed at the end of TGG). Even without finding Kit, he must have managed to find what would clear him (which he quoted in the letter) and unfortunately this rebuilt hotel perished again in a fire during the writing of TPP. Anyway, when Lemony met Beatrice Jr he was no longer a fugitive, and he had a fixed address. And after he met Beatrice Jr, he must have learned about details about her mother's death, and some more details about the Baudelaires leaving the island. (And perhaps to protect Beatiece Jr Lemony decided to end the research on the Baudelaires, leaving what happened to them open to causal readers). In addition, I think you will be happy to read my theory about the Great Hiatus, where I present more evidence about the fact that the publication of the books in Lemony's universe took several years. asoue.proboards.com/thread/36354/change-lemonys-life-submitted-jean
|
|
|
Post by counto on Mar 26, 2021 0:09:03 GMT -5
Ok you make a fair few good points there. One thing can agree on is that ASOUE may have taken play in the 90's.
On the whole Mrs K issue, I do somewhat believe that Kit may be Mrs K (though this might have been sometime before the Baudelaire's arrived at Prufrock Prep). Evidence of this is shown as a substitute for Mr Remora (for when he nearly choked to death on a banana). She supplied various books to her class as listed:
Ramona Quimby Age 8 - Beverly Cleary (1981) Matilda - Roald Dahl (1988) Ivan Lachrymose: Lake Explorer - Vincent Francis Doyle (?) Grimm's Fairy Tales - The Grimms Brothers (1812) Green Mansions - William Henry Hudson (1904) The Coded Poetry of Edgar Allan Poe - Edgar Allan Poe (?) I Lost Something at The Movies - Lena Pukalie (anagram of Pauline Kael author of I Lost It at The Movies in 1965) Nine Stories - J.D Salinger (1953) Charlotte's Web - E.B White (1952) Little House in the Big Woods - Laura Ingalls Wilder (1932)
For what we know she was fired by Nero after receiving a complaint from Carmelita's parents, presuming was Carmelita a student of her class at the time. Why she did this, probably because either K wouldn't put with her bratty attitude like the rest of the staff or she refused to do reading assignments given to her. So she likely told her parents who came upon an article in the Daily Punctilio that students reading certain books can be dangerous (most likely written by Geraldine Julienne)
Which would prove that Lemony had already been fired and faked his death sometime now. After Nero fired her, K grabbed to two children by the ankles and ran away with them. But why though? Well I have a theory going back to the list of books, two of them standing out The Coded Poetry of Edgar Allan Poe and Ivan Lachrymose: Lake Explorer. We know the author's name Vincent Francis Doyle is an obvious reference to VFD.
As mentioned at some point in LSTUA, an emergency meeting was going between Duchess R and others before Count Olaf and Esme interrupted. R was concerned that the children in training for VFD would forgot how to use coding in the future. The Coded Poetry of Edgar Allan Poe which I believe is a VFD book was likely used to secretly train children in coding. Shortly after Olaf's Schism, many young volunteers at the time began to forget.
I theorise that Mrs K (Kit) was trying to train Prufrock students to code in hopes of "recruiting" new Volunteers. However when she was fired, she took two children with her back to VFD headquarters to be recruited. It sounds out of character, but this shows how desperate times were becoming for VFD during the post Schism era. Even the way she kidnaps them, grabbing them by the ankles, perhaps ankle tattoos came back?
Back to the books mentioned, the latest up to date being Matilda published in 1988. Would've likely been fairly new or already published by then presumably a year or so before Mrs K was fired.
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 26, 2021 11:07:15 GMT -5
This speech was what basically caused my expulsion from the Brazilian fandom, and then it caused my schism with Snicket Sleuth. I hope this doesn't happen to us Counto. I already changed several of my views on ASOUE when strong evidence was shown to me. But no one ever managed to convince me that the main events of asoue were happening at the same time as the publication of asoue's books in Lemony's universe.
Everything that is narrated by Lemony Snicket indicates that he was narrating after a few years of the main events having occurred. Even TBBRE indicates this. TRR indicates that Klaus was unable to sleep properly for a few years. I agree that Miss K was Kit when LSTUA was written, because Daniel Handler did not intend to kill her during the main events described in asoue. But from the moment that he decided to kill her during the main events described in asoue, we entered a new interpretation of some events if we still consider that everything happens in the same universe following a coherent timeline.
Miss K wanted to recruit new neophytes, I totally agree. Her behavior is as described in the Frequently Asked Questions: she is a teacher who presented books to students. Orphaned students were able to be recruited more directly, as they did not need parental approval. They themselves gave their approval after being contacted more directly by Miss K themselves, and understood that they were entering a secret organization.
However, Miss K took one of asoue's books (which had already been published) to Prufrock Prep.
Note: according to Lemony's letter to cheesemakers talking about the Zombie in the Snow script, Lemony has been unable to publish his books for some time. According to Sally Sebald's letter to Lemony, she imagined that Lemony had been dead for many years ... Years that Lemony did not publish any books. At that time TRR was not yet published. According to TRR, Klaus has been unable to sleep properly for years. The very logic of Lemony's narration in which he knows details about the Baudelaires '(and only Baudelaires') private thoughts and conversations indicates that Lemony read something written by the Baudelaires themselves, and the name of the island's book and the fact that the castaways wrote in them and the fact that they spent a year on the island is strong evidence of where they left the record of their own lives (as well as the fact that everything ends up being taken to that island sooner or later, justifying how Lemony it was able to reach exactly the same island where the Baudelaires were).
After that, in TBRE we found Lemony's interviews (which show that he already had the information, and was just confirming that information).
In the same book we have evidence that Lemony already knew about the events surrounding the island, although he has not yet written anything about TE. That is, Lemony already knew that the Baudelaires had been on the island since the time he published TBB.
Add that to the fact that Kit died on the island while the Baudelaires were on the island, and you will realize that it is physically impossible for Kit to go to Peufrock Prep herself with a copy of TBB in hand. Now think that Miss K went to Prufrock Prep during the last days of school. But Prufrock Prep was still up and running when TRR was already published, since Genius' henchman went to school and found a copy of TRR. But TRR was published years after the events on the island. So, Prufrock Prep was open for several years after the events on the island. But when Lemony published TAA, Prufrock Prep was already closed for many years. That's because it took several years to publish all of his books. When TAA was published, Miss K had been in Prufrock Prep for several years. In turn, when Miss K was at Prufrock Prep it had been several years since all the major events in asoue had happened.
I don't think that his time line will be complete without determining the approximate dates for the following events that happened after TBB's publication: The Masquerade Ball where Lemony was captured, his second escape abroad, his return from abroad and the publication of TMM, the departure of Miss K to Prufrock Prep and the closure of Peufrock Prep, the capture of the snake Mamba Du Mal, the false (or true I am still confused) destruction of the making of the cheesemakers, the secret publication of LSTUA, the publication of TBL and when each of Beatrice Jr's letters was written, and finally the publication of TE. (And we still need to determine whether the publication of ATWQ was before or after the publication of ASOUE).
|
|
|
Post by counto on Mar 26, 2021 18:48:29 GMT -5
I don't want to cause Schism between us Jean. You do raise several clear points, I'll admit when I saw ASOUE as the list of books from Mrs K's class I was slightly puzzled. Because I remember their being a book it's self on the Island where various islanders wrote down their stories before coming here under the same title. I would've presumed that the Baudelaire's would've wrote down their own journey in the book before leaving the Island. Then Lemony some time later would arrive to the abandoned Island and discover ASOUE publishing it.
On thing that really confuses me is that Carmelita is still a student at Prufrock Prep.
The main reason I wanted to start this thread was to fix the ASOUE timeline or at least get a general idea of what time period it takes place in. However this easier said than done. Something tells me that ASOUE timeline it self is unsolvable, even to the author Daniel Handler. I guess that's why he choose to make it anachronistic, cause he wouldn't have to worry putting things into certain dates and real world events.
Now I'm kind off against that, because I think timelines generally help us understand the storyline a bit better and when things take place.
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 26, 2021 19:46:09 GMT -5
To consider everything in the same universe, we have to consider that Carmelita and the teachers survived the Hotel D fire and returned to Prufrock Prep.
|
|
|
Post by counto on Mar 27, 2021 18:38:55 GMT -5
I suppose that could be possible, though I always thought that Prufrock Prep was shut down sometime after Hotel D. A scenario I imagined is the department of education or some higher up found out about the school's horrendous things going on (cruel punishments, teachers robbing banks, kidnapped children ect) and shut it down. Plus I don't think that Nero would be able to find another job after that. At least not one in teaching or violin playing.
Also I imagined that Carmelita was unable to attend. Where she later finds out her parents Mr and Mrs Spats were killed in a fire by Olaf and Esme sometime before TPP. Becoming an orphan herself and was put through a sort of karmatic experience that she inflicted on the Baudelaire's and Quagmires.
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Mar 27, 2021 20:15:35 GMT -5
Fun hypotheses ... But I think we need to stick to canonical evidence whenever possible on this time-line.
|
|
|
Post by counto on Mar 28, 2021 3:24:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I wish it was canon though. So anyone back to the timeline, I think we can agree that ASOUE takes place in the mid to early 1990's. While ATWQ may take play in either the 70's or the 60's. I personally would aim to be in the 60's (discarding the fact involving the books referenced from the 70's). Which at least would give 30 year gap between the two. With Lemony's age I always pictured him to be in his mid to late thirties during the events of ASOUE.
I know that Daniel H was 29 when he first wrote and published ASOUE at the time.
I have a slight idea of his character timeline (I'm just using the dates as listed to fill in the gaps in-between):
Year 1 - Lemony S is born (Feb 1952) Year 3 - Lemony is recruited (1955) Year 8 - Lemony spends several nights in the woods (1960) Year 11 - Lemony meets Beatrice I (1963) Year 12/13 - All The Wrong Questions and The Hero of The Story (Jan/Feb 1965) Year 18 - Lemony graduates and starts working at TDP (1970) Year 22 - Lemony proposes to Beatrice (1972) Year 23 - Lemony fakes his death, same year Beatrice marries and becomes pregnant with Violet (1973) Year 37/38 - A Series of Unfortunate Events (1989-1990) Year 47 - Lemony publishes TBB and TRR (1999) Year 48 - Lemony meets Beatrice II, VFD Dissolves (2000) Year 67/68 - Poison For Breakfast aka Lemony's Death (2019/2020)
|
|
|
Post by Hermes on Mar 28, 2021 5:16:25 GMT -5
Mister M may have a solution to the puzzle of when the books were first published.
I'll try to say something more serious later.
|
|
|
Post by Isadora Is a Door on Mar 28, 2021 5:41:21 GMT -5
Mister M may have a solution to the puzzle of when the books were first published. May I??
|
|